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I think best play here is 3 bet, call original limper (no reads) but fold to a 4 bet shove by UTG + 1….thoughts?
Poker Stars $10 No Limit Hold'em Tournament – t150/t300 Blinds + t25 – 8 players
Hand Conversion courtesy of Tournament Poker Edge
Forzani (MP1): BB = 48.6, t14592
kmo25 (MP2): BB = 33.0, t9893
luckybutt43 (CO): BB = 15.9, t4760
Porest (BTN): BB = 69.8, t20939
kenneth7 (SB): BB = 25.4, t7615
Loopholes (BB): BB = 48.2, t14450
criticaleror (UTG): BB = 35.0, t10486
maya18 (UTG+1): BB = 76.3, t22892
Pre Flop: (t650) Forzani is MP1 with J
J
criticaleror calls t300, maya18 raises to t1200, Forzani ???
July 3, 2010
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Your line of thought sounds fine here in my opinion.
I like it too, definitely 3 bet and fold to a shove. Any 4-bet shoves with the blinds at this level with those stacks are hard to call off.
What hands do you think utg is limp/jamming with?
July 3, 2010
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Not muhc, Cougars4444 said:
What hands do you think utg is limp/jamming with?
Not much. Some people will get cute and do it with AA, KK, QQ, and AK but not often enough to be worried about it.
Probably more like misplayed medium pairs and they just spaz with them.
Stacks are so deep and you have position on both of them. I would flat the 1200 and if the utg limper repops it, just fold.
chechebobos said:
Stacks are so deep and you have position on both of them. I would flat the 1200 and if the utg limper repops it, just fold
Ugghhhh…..I don't know….seems a bit weak with JJ. I really struggle with hands like JJ and TT….can't be too strong with them, but playing them like 77 or 88 just seems really -ev. Pro's…I think we need you here on this one….
June 11, 2010
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I think I would flat this one and see what the flop brings. Flatting the UTG+1 raiser looks strong and depending on the flop you can do a lot there. I find that I don't start 3betting with JJ until a bit later and that I play it a little calmer earlier.
Doubt I would be real concerned with the limper here. Given stack sizes and no real reads on anyone I defenetly like the idea of 3 betting here. It really makes it alot easier to assign hand ranges if he calls or 4 bets. So Id go ahead and 3 bet here and if he went over the top of that I would just release the hand.
i can see the logic to 3b/folding, i just don't really like doing it with a hand as strong as JJ when there are other options available.
when you flat here, you are going to look pretty strong, and will often get to play the pot 3ways in position, which is just fine. also don't 3b because you think not 3betting with JJ is “too weak.” do it because you think it has the highest expected value to other plays. and i think if your plan is to 3b/fold, then flatting is going to definitely show a greater return in the long run.
June 11, 2010
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Hagbard Celine said:
i can see the logic to 3b/folding, i just don't really like doing it with a hand as strong as JJ when there are other options available.
when you flat here, you are going to look pretty strong, and will often get to play the pot 3ways in position, which is just fine. also don't 3b because you think not 3betting with JJ is “too weak.” do it because you think it has the highest expected value to other plays. and i think if your plan is to 3b/fold, then flatting is going to definitely show a greater return in the long run.
I find I like as a plan in active multiway pots you can use the flat to disguise your hand strength very well in increase the efficieny of your c-bets in those situation (at least at the micro/low level). A lot of players assume if you flat then you aren't packing a hand with any real strength and it can enhance the value you get from worse hands. The only thing that makes this play harder (at this level I find) is when the flop comes down with scare cards as it tends to shut down a lot of players, but with a raggedy flop and no overcards this can become a high value pot. I find when I play a lot of players don't really credit you for overpairs and tend to be blind to the possibility especially when they hit top pair on the flop.
Hagbard Celine said:
i can see the logic to 3b/folding, i just don't really like doing it with a hand as strong as JJ when there are other options available.
when you flat here, you are going to look pretty strong, and will often get to play the pot 3ways in position, which is just fine. also don't 3b because you think not 3betting with JJ is “too weak.” do it because you think it has the highest expected value to other plays. and i think if your plan is to 3b/fold, then flatting is going to definitely show a greater return in the long run.
Hagbard but doesnt our flat really invite the initial limper into the pot because he is getting a good price. So now Im playing the pot three way and the chances of an A, K, Q coming on the flop is like 23%. I know we are in position but then we play our hand in a more defensive way of check calling to get to the river hoping we are good. When if we took the lead in the hand we could have gotten away early or isolated. JJ is a tough hand to play imo.
sure it's a tough hand to play but often tough decisions are very profitable decisions. and regardless, your reasoning for raising should not be that you don't want to make tough decisions, or that an over flops a quarter of the time.
imo, if you 3bet here it should be because a) you have a read that the raiser will flat 3bets with a wide range or b) you think that he will 4bet with a range that we are ahead of and we can get all the money in now with an equity advantage.
taking a flop 3ways with JJ is not the end of the world, especially when we have position. just make good decisions. and if you do happen to make a mistake postflop, identify it and learn from it.
Its funny, after posting in this topic yesterday, I actually played the exact same type of hand moments later, but with 10 10 (about 40BB) on the button to an intial UTG+1 raiser (20BB). I 3-bet his raise (as most suggested in this thread) and he called. Flop came down J, 8, 4, rainbow. He checked and I shoved – he snap called with AK, which I thought he had. Turn came the Ace and game over for me. Nevertheless, I thought it was the right play so I wasnt mad. I would do it again if I had to and I would also suggest 3-bet/fold pre with JJ in this spot as OP stated and then evaluate the flop.
This is one of those relatively common spots where there isn't necessarily a best play for everyone. If you are very confident in your post-flop play with a vulnerable hand then calling can be very profitable. If the raiser in front of you has been opening light then I prefer 3-betting and folding to a shove. If you have any image on this table at this point then use that as your deciding factor and do the opposite of what the table probably expects you to do in this spot. In the long-run though, I would 3-bet/f this about 3/4ths of the time and call and flop 1/4th.
yeah 3b fold seems bad here, I would prefer to call if you want to do that
If our plan is to fold to the raiser's 4bet, I prefer flatting. This disguises our hand a little bit, keeps the fish in most likely, and we can play postflop vs. a perceived strong range and be able to get away if we get double barrelled on low flops and fold ace high flops
July 3, 2010
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I also flat and play in position deep like this. Don't like the idea of popping it and then releasing the hand to a jam. This deep we have room to get away postflop if we play smart since we're in position.
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