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Flash draw in WCOOP 3-max zoom against Moneymaker
kardi31
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September 19, 2017 - 10:10 am
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WCOOP $27 3-max zoom PSKO

Few hands into the money, still a lot of players left.

Blinds 2000/4000/500

 

Hero 200 972 [50BB]

SB 243 000 [61BB]

Moneymaker on BB with 113 000 [28BB]

 

Hero has 7h8h. 

Hero opens to 8400, SB fold, BB calls.  (Pot 20300)

 

Flop comes 4h Jd Kh. BB checks, Hero checks. 

Although I have a flush draw, I think BB would check-raise any of his K and J, or even check-shove.

 

Turn Ad

BB checks. Hero bets 12345, BB raises to 40000. Hero calls. (Pot 100300) 

On the turn I decided to tell the story of having an Ace. I think checking flop would make perfect sense for my A, also betting 60% into pot to protect against two flush draws, straight draws etc. 

Thinking back into this hand, I hate me calling in this spot because the pot is 100k with BB having 64k behind and me having 152k. But the line BB took didn’t make much sense to me, I did not believe he was so strong to check-raise the turn. Also I probably had symptomps of ‘I-want-to-bust-Moneymaker` illness. 

 

River Qd 

BB shoves, hero folds. 

 

I’m very interested in your opinions on this hand. I think there could be many lines to play this hand, I probably took the worst possible. 

 

I’ve put this hand into Boom and messaged Moneymaker on Twitter. He said he had 2d5d.

labrocis
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September 20, 2017 - 7:06 am
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Would definitely check back the turn, the board is very scary and you are given the opportunity to see a free river card. You had the right mentality on the flop, follow it up on the turn as well. Your 8high flush could not be good here as well, so I would try to check down till the end.
As played, I dont like the turn call, we are beat by so many hands, and only a hearth could save us here, but even then its possible villain is having a higher flush draw. If he reraises you on the turn hes almost always shoving the river(especially moneymaker who understands the game), since there are no real scare cards for his turn reraising range

Foucault

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September 20, 2017 - 8:22 am
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Bet the flop. You can use a small sizing. I don’t think it’s at all a guarantee that he check-raises all of his Kx or especially Jx. Even if he does, he’s not going to have those hands that often. He’s a BB caller. 

As played betting turn is fine/good. Sucks to get check-raised, but I don’t think it happens that often. When you have a draw with no showdown value, you should generally be playing it aggressively.

DuckinDaDeck
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September 21, 2017 - 10:23 pm
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I like betting the flop small as mentioned by Foucault. Although this is a fairly wet board for tight ranges, it is not nearly as dynamic vs. a blind defending range. I think we could reasonably build a strategy around betting small with our entire betting range. Assuming you are raising ~45-60% from the button you have range advantage (and nut advantage) on high flops vs. any reasonable BB flatting range. I have not played much 3 max, so the tendencies may be different, but I think there are better ways for villain to play marginal 1 pair hands than check-raising, so I would not expect a strong opponent is planning to do so frequently at 28bb effective. I guess we can expect more aggressive/high variance play than usual because of recent bubble, but I don’t think that is enough to justify a huge adjustment to our betting range.

On turn I think we should bet as played, but I don’t hate checking back if we had bet the flop. After villain has already called a bet, at this stack depth, I don’t know if we have enough fold equity and/or implied odds to blindly re-open the betting when we can collect our equity by checking back. Value hands like many Aces and Kings might prefer a bet-check-bet line on this runout, so if we want to have some bluffs in that range I think 87s fits reasonably well.

I think we want to fold our flush draw to the turn check-raise. If villain never has bigger hearts we have a good price, but the blocker/cooler effect when they do is pretty huge and, either way, we are almost never winning the hand if we don’t hit our flush.

theginger45

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October 13, 2017 - 1:11 pm
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Bet the flop all day, this is one of the worst hands to check back since it’s so easy for villain to prevent you from realizing your equity by bombing turn. Not worth considering whether villain might check-shove – I imagine he’s doing that with exactly zero hands when your bet is going to be <10k and he has >100k behind.

Betting turn is necessary once you do check, but I think calling the raise is overly ambitious. Pretty much the only times he check/folds river are potentially when the flush hits, so it feels like you never get paid when you hit, and you always either face a bet or a check-call when you miss.

DuckinDaDeck
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October 19, 2017 - 11:01 am
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I have a question. My instinct is that if we bet flop and face a similar size check-raise it is a much better spot to continue than on the turn, but I’m not sure if that’s entirely true. I think we can call a turn shove on any 8 or 7, whereas I would be uncomfortable doing so on the river after a turn check-raise. Is that enough of a reason to make calling a flop check-raise okay?

Foucault

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October 19, 2017 - 2:13 pm
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Ya you should be calling any reasonable flop K/R.

KableTownCEO
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November 21, 2017 - 11:15 pm
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Is there any merit to having a limp range preflop? You have a good player in the big blind off a 28bb stack in a particularly weird format where you have to guess how his ranges react to the change. Maybe I’m overthinking it, but if we’re opening 30% and calling off 15%, and shoving most hands become marginally losing for the big blind, I’d rather limp? We can limp/call and limp/fold vs the small blind stack, and have limp/shove limp/call and limp/fold ranges vs the big blind.

 

Now if the stacks of the blinds were flipped, I’d just want to have a raising range.

theginger45

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November 28, 2017 - 10:19 pm
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KableTownCEO said
Is there any merit to having a limp range preflop? You have a good player in the big blind off a 28bb stack in a particularly weird format where you have to guess how his ranges react to the change. Maybe I’m overthinking it, but if we’re opening 30% and calling off 15%, and shoving most hands become marginally losing for the big blind, I’d rather limp? We can limp/call and limp/fold vs the small blind stack, and have limp/shove limp/call and limp/fold ranges vs the big blind.

 

Now if the stacks of the blinds were flipped, I’d just want to have a raising range.  

Limping doesn’t work so well when we’re still 50bb deep against the SB. Limping works best when it allows us to turn a hand/formation that’s three bets deep into four bets, or four bets into five – it doesn’t really achieve that compared to a small raise here. We’re still four bets deep against the BB, and five bets deep against the SB.

The Riceman
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December 10, 2017 - 11:59 am
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kardi31 said:

“Also I probably had symptomps of ‘I-want-to-bust-Moneymaker` illness. “

I love this.

And:

“Flop comes 4h Jd Kh. BB checks, Hero checks. Although I have a flush draw, I think BB would check-raise any of his K and J, or even check-shove.”

I don’t think this is true at all.

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