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Final two tables, thought-process check
jacobsharktank
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March 10, 2014 - 11:30 am
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Yo yo TPE, this hand is from last night's $33 on bovada. i think it's the 7k that starts at 8pm. it ended up with just over 10k in the pool. we're like 4th or 5th out of 11 players when this hand took place. here are a few hands prior to help set up the dynamic i went through.

 

when we had maybe 15 people, villains two to my right and one to my right went back and forth a bit. btn btn shoved 10bb. sb iso'd with K7s when he was sitting on maybe 50bb. he lost to btn's ATo. btn was playing pretty tight and def not shoving appropriately, so btn's iso was way too loose in my eyes. he has the middle of Kx, so yah lol. i'm all for calling light to snap off people who shove correctly, but this guy wasn't and K7s isn't a call against a btn who is shoving correctly anyway lol.

 

the following hand:

co (previously btn) has 21bb and opens 2.4-2.5x. btn 3bets to 7x. I think btn is willing to go against co, potentially with a bad hand, but i don't think he'll just snap hand over his chip stack to a cold raise from the blinds. i haven't been particularly active at this point. i 4b shoved Q8s from small blind and he tank/folded.

 

several orbits later i ATo utg 6 handed after 3 orbits of opening utg with AA, AT, JJ tho no hands showed down). we're 12 handed. bb defends (guy with K7s and the 3b). board is 942ss and I have the As. I cbet and he calls. He donk leads 1/3 on a Qx. I float with intention of raising lots of river types including flushes, T/J/K/ cards, etc. river is 4s. He bets something like 9994 into 40k. it was a weird 1/4 number though. i time down into the green, raise to 29999. he tank folds. gg.

 

another hand against a diff villain.

i open with 40bb from co with AJ. villain in bb is cl. he defends. ck ck KJTss board. he leads out turn for like 49% on second flush draw coming in. he cks river, shows 74cc for no flush draw on board, ust a single stab on turn.

 

okay here's real hand lol.

I have been varying my raise sizes randomly, nothing related to my strength, slightly affected by position and remaining stack sizes, but usually slightly more than a minraise because i got defended a ton where i wanted more steals. i minraised the button with AKo and 135k at 2k/4k. i'm 2nd out of 11. chip leader has like 150k and hasn't been active. i do'nt have his hud numbers, and i likely was the only person in the tournament with a hud, though kb was at the final table i learned haha. i was really afraid this was him and i had asked him about it without thinking to check to see if he was playing in it the same tournament. anyway.

8k, sb 3bets (first 3bet but only about 50 hands) to 17xxx. I 4b to 35k to incude a shove. I thought I'd get more of his range shoving over a 4b than I would calling an all in. I also didn't want to play this as a marginal spot post flop by having to decide if I call down if i just call the 3b. most people have like 10-19bb and this is a 12 minute level tourney so really dont wanna bust or flip here. i'm ready to snap off his 5b jam because if he's merged and has too wide of a value range, i have ak and i'm in good shape. if he has a polarized range, i have ak and i'm not in good shape. he 5bs to 55xxx though! i have 135k to start the hand. his range looks so nutted and i think a rando in a bovada $33 isn't going to 5b bluff small, so it's like…idk. a nutted range or a wider range than it should be. i'm still not sure, but if anything i saved myself a potentially very costly cooler in-game. i folded, leaving myself with 20bb when levels went up and i scored 2nd place. you guess who i lost to in the end lol. it's okay. felt good. learning a ton. etc. woo tpe. i hear carlos won a contender, as did kb. congrats everyone.

 

thoughts?

pckrrr
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March 10, 2014 - 1:20 pm
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Obv never 4b/f. You need 37% equity vs his range. You have 39% vs QQ+,AKs,AKo. 

 

I do think flatting the 3b is better than 4betting.  You're never getting it in very happy. Villain can't really have a 5b/f range and can't 5b/s very light because it will be icm suicide. So you are probably up against alot of pocketspairs, ak and aq. Don't think it is really necesarry flip here. 

jasonchr
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March 10, 2014 - 2:39 pm
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What was villain's stack size? I tend to agree that flatting the 3B might be the better line here. No need to go crazy with AK with your chip lead and lose a flip. I was in a similar situation Sat night and punted off a good portion of my stack when I convinced myself villain was 3Bing light yell

jacobsharktank
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March 10, 2014 - 2:43 pm
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6 combos of QQ where we're 42.66% equity

3 combos of KK where we're 29.6% equity

3 combos of AA where we're 7% equity

9 combos of AK where we're essentailly 50% equity

 

not that i'm looking for reasons to justify my fold, but why do we think his 5b range even is QQ here? and nothing is really icm suicide for him because he has like 18bb behind if he gets it in vs me and loses, which would then make it slightly more likely he has a wider range than what we've given him. i think he'd shove with <QQ and Im not convinced he wouldn't shove with QQ. like as this happened, i thought immediately at least some of the qq combos are going to be shoving instead of small 5betting. 

 

i 4b intending to snap off his shoves because his 3b range can be wide here, or it could be polarized, it doesn't matter really because AK does well against both sets of ranges. However when he clicks it back, how is it anything but QQ+ AK? if we take out even 2 of the QQ combos, it becomes a fold. i just ran like 4 diff pot odds calculations to make sure of it. i'm doing it all by hand on paper, so you can check it if you want but we're not getting our price even, and if we were, it would STILL be a mistake to call because of icm. i dont even know how much of an overlay we'd need to correctly call. obviously though getting exactly correct price against exact hands or even just the ranges, you still wouldn't call because of icm. you need overlay because your chips lost are worth more. prospect theory, y'all.

what this would say is to not 4b then, but i already explained why i 4b. 

jacobsharktank
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March 10, 2014 - 2:46 pm
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he had like 50bb and i had about 32bb. rest of the players had like 15. i remember having 20 and being 4th or something. most stacks are close to each other though.

 

word, so flatting looks better is the consensus? i dont really think i'd be getting it in as a flip if he 5b jams though. for instance, his wider value range would include AQ/AJ in a button vs blinds situation. we're shallow. yeah if he's shoving AJ/AQ there he's also pairs we flip against, but we have all that overlay from hands that we dominate. AJ and AQ are 18 more combos where we have huge leads in.

jasonchr
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March 10, 2014 - 3:37 pm
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Ok, so you're on the button? Sorry, for some reason I thought you were in EP. Yeah, your reasoning makes more sense now. But I personally would still rather flat the 3B. What I've seen in my HH reviews is that a lot of players would just shove A10+/22+ against your open. The 3B looks stronger to me but I guess it depends on your read of the player too. I'm not very comfortable 4b calling a shove in this situation but that's just me 🙂

pckrrr
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March 10, 2014 - 4:21 pm
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The stacksizes you mention in OP are a little different (34 vs 38bb)wink. But still I think 4b/f AK with 32bb is bad. Villain is obv never 5b/f and if this moves makes you fold combo's out of your small 4b/c range his range could obviously be wider. With this stacksizes the argument of ICM suicide doesn't really count, but I still think flatting is better. Your perceived 4b range is really capped. You probably 4b jam your mid pocketpairs, fold the low pp's and your deep enough to flat a bunch of hands out of your open range. Taking ICM and other stacksizes into consideration I don't think is a great spot to 4b bluff. So you range is kinda topheavy, which should tighten up the 5b range of villain.

jacobsharktank
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March 10, 2014 - 6:31 pm
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yah sorry, i wrote these omments at diff parts of the day and don't remember or have exact info 🙁 haha. i also overslept and was late to work 😡 this game ran a little late

jacobsharktank
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March 10, 2014 - 6:39 pm
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does that mean i should be shoving AK because my perceived range is midpairs? ill get called the times he's dominated when he AQ/AJ and it forces him to decide to decide if he's going to flip. i know i can play postflop, but if he's going to get in behind for our stack preflop enough, it surpasses chips gained frm playing postflop. and not sure if this is a leak, but i don't flat 3bets at this stack size almost ever unless i'm strong. i realize i broadcast my strength, and maybe i'm losing all this value i don't realize because a ton of times youll see people level themselves in 3b pots, so yah. like maybe i'm missing value because i don't noticeit because i notice all the times someone hands me their stack when i flat with onlymy strong hands. but i also still 4b strong hands too. it varies really.

 

also idk, i haven't in a while since i've been on bovada, but people still got into 4b/5b stuff at like 30-40bb when i was on revolution.

pckrrr
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March 11, 2014 - 7:20 am
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I think it's best in this particular spot to not have a 4b/c range, unless villain is a sort of vamooo Brazilian who rips it in way to light. Like you said this is a great spot to flat your monsters. So this reduces your perceived 4b/c range with some AA,KK combo's. This means your 4b/c range exists out of alot of combo's of AK,AQs and only a few pocket pairs. If villain knows this it's oke to 5b rip alot of his pocketpairs and put you in a difficult situation taking ICM and other stacksizes into consideration. You're never going to get it in very happy, because your flipping most of the time. 

 

4bet shoving is obviously +EV in this situation but I think we could gain more by flatting. 

– We are in position

– We underrep our range

– We dominate alot of hands out of the 3b/f range of villain.

– Perceived range connects on alot of boards. 

theginger45

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March 11, 2014 - 12:30 pm
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Seems like a standard 4bet/call spot preflop, I think anything else would be pretty bad. I also think folding to the 5bet is pretty bad, considering we're getting 5 to 1 or better (not sure exactly what's in the pot). With AK we're going to flop an A or K roughly 30% of the time, so even if we fold literally every time we miss the flop I think it's fine to pair-mine here as a way to exploit the fact his small 5bet here is pretty bad.

jacobsharktank
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March 17, 2014 - 10:46 am
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when you say standard 4b/c, do you mean that his min5b just sets us into call pre and fold when we miss post? i'm more disappointed in how this hand played after playing this guy heads up. he had me like 3-1 and doubled me up when i had 20-30bb sorry can't remember what, but he 3b/instamin5b clicked back/called with A9o which leads me to think he wasn't nutted. it's just that it was the first time and it felt super strong.

jacobsharktank
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March 17, 2014 - 10:50 am
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pckrrr said:

I think it's best in this particular spot to not have a 4b/c range, unless villain is a sort of vamooo Brazilian who rips it in way to light. Like you said this is a great spot to flat your monsters. So this reduces your perceived 4b/c range with some AA,KK combo's. This means your 4b/c range exists out of alot of combo's of AK,AQs and only a few pocket pairs. If villain knows this it's oke to 5b rip alot of his pocketpairs and put you in a difficult situation taking ICM and other stacksizes into consideration. You're never going to get it in very happy, because your flipping most of the time. 

 

4bet shoving is obviously +EV in this situation but I think we could gain more by flatting. 

– We are in position

– We underrep our range

– We dominate alot of hands out of the 3b/f range of villain.

– Perceived range connects on alot of boards. 

what is my perceived range when i flat 3b? i'm hesitant to do a lot of “calling” at this stack size, so i don't really know what to think of it when it happens. i assume monsters and broadway hands they're getting fishy with.

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