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May 30, 2012
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Merge – $30+$3.00 1 rebuy one addon(33 cubed)|<> NL
– Holdem – 6 players: Final table
CO: 20,559.00
BTN: 59,777.00
SB: 37,984.00
BB: 101,266.00
Hero
(UTG): 63,269.00
MP:
149,145.00
CO posts ante 250.00, BTN posts ante 250.00, SB posts
ante 250.00, BB posts ante 250.00, Hero posts ante 250.00, MP posts ante
250.00, SB posts SB 1,250.00, BB posts BB 2,500.00
We are somewhat shallow with CLeader having 60 bbs, 2nd
place with 40 bbs Hero and Villain with
25 bbs in 3rd and 4th, 5th place 15 bbs and
shorty with 8 bbs. Villains has 21/17 stats with 13% 3bet% over 168 hands.
Pre Flop: (5250.00) Hero has J
J
[color=red]Hero raises to
5,000.00[/color], fold, fold, [color=red]BTN raises to
59,527.00 and is all-in[/color], fold, fold, Hero???
Do you snap call? but more importantly, what do you put his reshoving range on? I was not overly active although I had opened 3 times out of the last 6 hands
Also, what would be your reshoving range if you were in the villain's position (UTG min raise from similar stack)
Pay raise was about $120 USD from 6th to 5th
June 2, 2012
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Pay jump isn't really significant so I'm snap calling. Button has 24 BB's so he should be shipping relatively light here, especially since you have been somewhat active. I would say I'm shoving Ax, J10s+, any pair and premiums. Basically my entire range as you should be doing.
May 30, 2012
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I would say I'm shoving Ax, J10s+, any pair and premiums.
But wouldnt the fact that there is an 8 bbs and a 15 bbs stacks tighten his range Plus I am opening UTG?
I will post results a little later
July 20, 2012
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But wouldnt the fact that there is an 8 bbs and a 15 bbs stacks tighten his range Plus I am opening UTG?
You are 6 handed, you opened 3 of the last 6 pots and this guy could well be taking advantage of that. His range could be really wide if it's a resteal but even if it's a value shove then it's probably still 55+ AJ+ KQ, which you are doing fine against. In terms of ICM, I'd ignore it, the payjump isn't worth sweating over in the long run.
Regardless of reads opening JJ there to call off anyone and not over-thinking it.
August 13, 2012
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I just watched a video about this. It was bigdog's first video he posted which was, “How to play 10bbs” There were 2 players that folded down to 1 and 2 bbs in that tournament. Casey said, “If you are worried about pay jumps and not focusing on opportunities to win a tournament, you are playing to high of stake.” I think personally, you are 6 handed opening with JJ pre and never folding pre with that hand. Even if I get raised all in for my tourney life. Now I would fold a hand like AQ and lower and 88 or 99 and lower.
People think Jacks are one of the worst hands because they don't know how to play them. I would rather have jacks in that spot than AQ. I would fold AQ, but it would be irritating too.
May 30, 2012
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Thanks for responses guys, I am more interested in the range you would resteal shove 25 bbs than anything. Obviously I snap called with JJ's and will let everybody know what villain had, but the reason I want some comments here and I brought up the pay jump and the other stacks is I think it is unnecessary for Villain to be shoving there 25 bbs with 2 smaller stacks vs the only other 25 bbs stack on the table, which probably is not opening light. I think villain could do that with against the small stacks not risking elimination or the big stacks expecting a wider range. The point made about not worrying about pay jump is one of the reasons I don't get why we are assigning so wide ranges to the villain's resteal shove. It just seems to me like a bad spot to take from his side unless he has a strong hand, so I am still curious as to why we would do it with 55, 66, KQ, AJ. I see it more reasonable with 77-JJ and AQ, and maybe 3bet to induce with QQ+ and AK. What am I missing here??
August 13, 2012
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Ever think that the villain might be thinking what your thinking. He might think you can fold your UTG raise pre because there are shorties on the table and thinks that it is a opportunity for a chance to get chips. With that being said he needs to have something that might give him some value when he jams you. So I think he had something like 8 10 suited. Something like connected suitors or even a weak King or Ace
June 3, 2012
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I'd call and feel good about it, I don't expect him to be light for ICM reasons, but he could be shoving weaker hands (88-TT/AQ/AK) here for value.
June 2, 2012
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I mean it obv is villain dependent. If you really think that this guy is worried about the pay jump than his range is much smaller. Regardless I'm not raise folding JJ in this spot. It's too strong of a hand and I'm simply playing to win the tournament.
JLUDEOBV said:
I mean it obv is villain dependent. If you really think that this guy is worried about the pay jump than his range is much smaller. Regardless I'm not raise folding JJ in this spot. It's too strong of a hand and I'm simply playing to win the tournament.
+100000000000
June 5, 2012
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I don't think ICM comes into play here. ICM should affect marginal high variance plays, not fist-pump high variance plays, and this one should certainly be a fist pump.
QQ+ would be doing things other than just straight ripping a significant % of the time, so his range is weighted heavily towards stuff you crush or are slightly better than flipping against.
Plus, ICM is biggest on the bubble (usually about 20% of money awarded) and in the top 3. I think its >$EV to be playing for one of those top three spots here.
July 12, 2012
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I'm a little lost in this thread. I don't know ICM, I don't know “fist pump shove” or “marginal high variance plays”. I think the latter two are kind of self-explanatory but ICM is a brand new concept.
That being said, I don't really know why the distinction in snap-calling if the result is all the chips are in the middle. Why not think it through? All of that to say, I think the CO is shoving A8s and ATo and almost any pair down to 5s or 6s.
Do you think the villain was thinking that deeply about it? I've played against guys that 3-bet shove looking to steal a pot or get lucky like a BINGO game. But the point is they aren't ranging you, they're just doing what they've seen some pro do on ESPN or something. I'm also willing to concede that I may not know what I'm talking about given my level of success before really working on my game and joinging TPE which has already paid dividends.
"…if he fails, he fails while daring greatly, so that his place shall never be with those cold and timid souls who knew neither victory nor defeat."-Teddy Roosevelt
June 5, 2012
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Dead7s said:
I'm a little lost in this thread. I don't know ICM, I don't know “fist pump shove” or “marginal high variance plays”. I think the latter two are kind of self-explanatory but ICM is a brand new concept.
That being said, I don't really know why the distinction in snap-calling if the result is all the chips are in the middle. Why not think it through? All of that to say, I think the CO is shoving A8s and ATo and almost any pair down to 5s or 6s.
Do you think the villain was thinking that deeply about it? I've played against guys that 3-bet shove looking to steal a pot or get lucky like a BINGO game. But the point is they aren't ranging you, they're just doing what they've seen some pro do on ESPN or something. I'm also willing to concede that I may not know what I'm talking about given my level of success before really working on my game and joinging TPE which has already paid dividends.
There are places out there that will explain it much better than I could, but basically ICM is taking the value of surviving pay jumps into account when making decisions. If there are short stacks at a final table who will bust soon, it can make sense to tighten up a bit and wait for them to get felted to secure the extra $ from the pay jumps.
When I say marginal high variance plays, I'm talking about risking your stack with something like 53% equity. Fist pump shove and snap-call are essentially forum shorthand to express the idea that the alternatives aren't nearly as good. Obviously we should be thinking through all of our decisions.
Hope that quick explanation helps you out in the future 🙂
Last thing – I know what you mean about bingo players, but at the final table of a 30-cubed, its pretty safe to assume the villain is thinking through his decisions pretty well.
July 3, 2010
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This prize pool is just way too small for me to make ICM considerations, not to mention villain should be shoving plenty of worse pairs.
May 30, 2012
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Ok thanks all for your replies. He shoved with KQo and I snapped called. I lost the flip. I just think it's a bit spewie from his side as I dont expect a UTG raiser (even 6 handed) to fold enough and when called you are always behind, so I wanted to know your opinions on shove ranges. If it was a cutoff or button raise I would have seen it as a normal resteal spot from him.
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