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Final Table Bubble SB vs big stack
TheClubber
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February 14, 2015 - 1:40 pm
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$125 live tournament with many bad local regs. At my table is a regular notorious for hating to fold pre-flop. He and the big stack have been playing most of the hands. They both have me covered which has forced me to tighten up my game. I haven't played with the big stack before, but he talks openly about experience playing lots of different varieites of poker. He has been applying pressure to the whole table, but it's not been naked aggression. 

The big blind is an old nit who keeps telling the table what hands he's folding and that he is planning to fold his way to the final table.

Tournament started at 7 pm. It's now 3am and I'm not thinking the most clearly.

 

Blinds 6K/12k/2K 

Button – 650K

Hero – SB 210K

BB – 140K

 

Button limps. Hero is has Ad5d in SB. 

What is your plan here?  My gut says to jam, and I was planning to shove over a button raise but 18BB seems like too much even though i should be ahead almost all the time here. Betting less than a shove commits a good portion of my stack OOP where I will feel in the dark on most flops.

BionicApe
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February 14, 2015 - 4:55 pm
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Oh, this looks like an interesting exercise. Offhand, I think this shove is a losing proposition. You're risking a lot of chips to pick up a very small pot and if the button's calling range is at all wide then even if you're a favorite to win the hand you will be losing your stack probably around 40% (most likely more) of the time that he calls. This really depends on the button's calling range.

I don't think you summarily dismiss the calling range of the big blind either.  I think determining the cEV against the button is a good place to start and probably accurate enough just reckoning that the big blind's calling range is probably going to be under 5% with the button still to act.

My guess would be that this is going to prove only marginally +cEV and probably not worth putting your tournament life in jeopardy over.

If you can come up with some semi-accurate calling ranges you can determine the approximate cEV of the shove. Are you in the money at this point? If so, how deep?

TheClubber
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February 14, 2015 - 6:26 pm
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The tournament paid 25 spots. Current payout is about $375 with around $5K for first. Next payout is about $600.

I have a real hard time constructing a range since button's limp confuses me. While it could be deceptive, it's more likely what it looks like “I want to see a flop, but I don't want to risk a lot of chips and I can use my position and big stack.” Out of that range what is going to call a shove? Seems like a very small percentage. 

TheClubber
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February 14, 2015 - 6:30 pm
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So in the moment, shoving seemed to be risking too much to win too little, and it was hard to find a raise amount that is large enough to occasionally fold out button without leaving myself an SPR between 1 and 2. Folding seemed way too weak with a playable hand and I called. leaving myself about 210K. 

 

Flop (46k) AhKd8c  Hero?

BionicApe
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February 14, 2015 - 7:54 pm
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(oh, the post is titled 'final table bubble' — overlooked that bit earlier).

Probably check/call, I would want to try to keep the pot small. Also am a little interested in what the big blind is going to do, if the big blind bets and the button raises I would feel pretty good about laying this down. If the big blind checks and the button bets I'm going to call at least one street to see what happens. If they both check then I'm probably going to lead the turn.

I'd be a little concerned about the possibility of a slow-played monster from the button and would have to make some kind of estimation based on his limping frequency. I think it's more likely that he has a hand that he would like to see a flop with but doesn't want to call a shove with. I can't imagine him being too afraid to call a shove with most pocket pairs especially since he's notorious for seeing flops and would think he'd rather raise most pocket pairs preflop than limp and have to deal with overcards. I think it's pretty safe to rule out most of those so that pretty much leaves monster hands, reasonably good connectors, (suited for the smaller ones but not necessarily the lower broadway cards and like T9, maybe even 89o) and maybe some crappy aces, suited or not, that he wouldn't want to call a shove with… maybe.

Most people are probably only slow playing AA, KK, and QQ… there just aren't that many hands that comprise that range. The hands that I see limping there most productively are T9-Q9 and maybe K9-KJ. My first guesstimate would be on that subset. Which means that any broadway cards that fall on the turn or river are potentially tres bad.

I think our hand is too good to fold without a solid reason, but can't stand much pressure either. I hate playing this passively from the blinds because I feel like it's very transparent, at the same time, I think avoiding a large pot is more important.

Foucault

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February 15, 2015 - 11:13 am
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You're right that raising less than all in pre-flop will be a disaster. You're never going to win it pre, you're going to miss a lot of flops, and Villain's stubbornness will actually work in his favor in this situation because he should actually put a lot of pressure on you because of the bubble dynamic.

Whether or not to shove really just comes down to what you think his limping and calling ranges could be. Is he really going to call a shove with like T7s or something? That would actually make me less inclined to shove even though you're ahead because you aren't a big favorite and the ICM implications are quite significant here.

To be honest, though, I think you're being paranoid. It sure seems like he's just going to fold a lot, and you have actually have a very very good hand for making this play because even against a tight range you have reasonable equity. I mean, this can be a shove with A5s even when it's not a shove with any two (which it may well be).

It's hard to imagine a non-exploitive situation where jamming vs a button raise would be correct but his limping range is somehow so strong that you can't profitably shove vs that. Basically you'd need to have a read (not just a guess/fear) that he only open limps big hands.

As played, flop is a very clear check and go from there (probably just check-calling down if BN starts betting).

BionicApe
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February 15, 2015 - 3:46 pm
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Another thing that warrants consideration when deciding whether or not to shove is the dynamic that exists between yourself and the player on the button. You mentioned that you hadn't played against him before, but have the pots you've played with him throughout the tournament been heavily contested? Is there a strong sense of rivalry or even animosity between you two? Is ego enough of a factor that he either 'wants to get you' or would call you lighter out of spite? Generally speaking, the friendlier your interactions the more likely I'd think he'd be to fold.

His perception of your play is also an important consideration. Does he have reason to believe that he can trap you? Has he seen you shove at all light? If he thinks you're nitty then there's no reason to limp marginal hands and he's more likely to be slow playing. I can't possibly describe the entire range of perceptions he might have, but they can potentially make a big difference.

After looking at the ranges I proposed above and the underlying assumption that he may be limping here because he's tentative about calling a shove, shoving preflop looks like a better option than I had originally thought, better than the numbers may seem to indicate anyway.

It's a tough spot though, especially being on the final table bubble; earlier or later in the tournament it's a fair amount easier to shove here.

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