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Final Table 5handed Top 2 Pay Button Shove range in certain spot.
fishingfreak
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May 19, 2015 - 1:07 pm
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Hi Guys,

 Here's a spot that came up that I think I played ok, but not sure.

 

It confused me because:

Final Table, 5 handed, in a $5re Satellite for a $200 entry into the weekly $50k, Top 2 got tixs, 3rd got $46.xx.

2k/4k 400a

I was in 2nd with 15.7bbs and was folded to on the Button with ATs.

Small blind, who folded to steal 92%, was SS with 4.4bbs.

Big Blind only folded to steal 65%, and we had same stack size.

 

Even though I was 2nd in chips, the blinds were coming so fast, and only top 2 got tixs, So I still had to outlast 3 players. Suddenly my 15BB stack doesn't look so good.

 

With the BB's high defend %, Is this a spot to still min open,  for 2BB's+, let him defend, hope to hit a flop or take it away, or if not, just be happy with a 12BB stack as the blinds come through again?

Or is this a simple Shove as the BB's calling range here is only the tip top of hands, and I just got caught by his 3% of hands for his (and my)  tournament life, as he is in 3rd. I don't expect him to call over 3% here.  

 

Just shoving and winning the blinds, 8K in pot, instead of going post flop with someone that I suspect will likely defend, seemed like the play, and a way to stay in the $ for another orbit, as long as it got through. I would of opened like 2.2x if both blinds were tight.

 

So this deep, given history with Big Blind… Is this a simple shove or was that not a good spot?

 

Party, $4.55 Buy-in (2,000/4,000 blinds, 400 ante) No Limit Hold'em Tournament, 5 Players
Poker Tools Powered By Holdem Manager – The Ultimate Poker Software Suite.

SB: 17,460 (4.4 bb)
BB: 61,070 (15.3 bb)
MP: 38,532 (9.6 bb)
CO: 78,298 (19.6 bb)
Hero (BTN): 62,640 (15.7 bb)

Preflop: Hero is BTN with T of spades A of spades

 

Thanks!

PlasticPearl
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May 19, 2015 - 4:44 pm
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Being far from a satellite expert I am shoving here. As you say it isn't a done deal. I also think the SB will be calling wide here given his stack size so you may also be getting his 4bb. I think ATs can get ugly postflop if you don't hit, so I would ship it and be done with it.

fishingfreak
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May 19, 2015 - 6:01 pm
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I was going to mention that I would almost be looking for the SB to be calling with a wide open range, much of which AT would be  slightly ahead of, or be happy to get the 4BB's in there.

Fire
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May 19, 2015 - 7:07 pm
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Open raising is much better than shoving IMO. There are not that many worse hands that will call you but a lot of worse hands that may shove on you. Do you remember your other thread? And if you get called you get to play a pot with a premium hand (5handed its pretty premium) in position. Thats pretty much as good as it gets.

folding_aces_pre_yo
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May 19, 2015 - 7:41 pm
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I'd shove for sure and i'm pretty sure that its ev+ to do so. If only i knew the maths 🙁

OneTime1Time
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May 20, 2015 - 1:59 am
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Pretty much shoving this every time. BB calling range has to be super narrow here, so it's pretty rare we don't just pick up the blinds. We will have some not horrible equity when we do get called by BB, as he does have pocket pairs that he's calling with.

I don't like just min raising. What are we going to do when BB jams? If i'm in BB here, and I find you have a tendency to raise/fold with hands as strong as AT here, then I'm opening my reshove range to 60%. ATs is a shove with 15bb in a full ring game, so it's going to be even more of a shove 5 handed. I don't really think ICM plays a big enough deal here to worry, as we aren't on the direct bubble here. There is still a bit of work to do, and we need all the chips we can get to do that. 

Folding would be, by a very very long ways, the worst option of the 3. Never fold this. 

Fire
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May 20, 2015 - 4:20 pm
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Sorry quoting doesnt work (The HH converter doesnt work either, they should really fix the forum):
I don’t like just min raising. What are we going to do when BB jams?

Um, make a decision? That’s what poker is all about. In this case it usually going to be a call but if the BB is playing very tight you might reevaluate. If he’s playing 5/4 you should probably fold if he stuffs it on you. And you saved a lot of chips instead of complaining about running bad when you open shove and run into something better.
The reason why open shoving many BBs is not particularly great is that it makes it easy for your opposition to play optimally against you. I mean, generally speaking, in poker you can make money either from getting lucky (you cant influence that) or from your opponents playing suboptimally. But if you open shove a huge amount the optimal counterstrategy is quite easy to see, you should call only with your premiums and fold everything else. Depending on your stats (the one who shoves) you can discuss a few borderline hands but generally your opponents are hardly ever going to make big mistakes in terms of EV if you open shove 16 BB (or 30 or 100). Sometimes you see this early in tournaments where some monkey shoves 100 BB and another calls with QTs or worse but those dead money players are almost always eliminated at this stage.
Open shoving is more like a last resort if your stack (or the other players stack) has become so shallow that you cant play more than one action anymore. Where exactly that border is when you should/need to open shove depends as always on many factors like your opponents / playing style / tourney strcture / payouts etc. but over 15 BBs is usually a little bit too high, especially when you’re in position. It is +EV here because you have a good hand, but that doesnt mean its optimal.

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