November 11, 2014
Tournament Name – 3,000 Euro GTD
Buy-in: 20 Euro
Background:
I'm at the final table of the above stated event and 4 players remain. A most unusual incident occurred within the first few minutes of final table play. The villain under investigation berated V5 (now eliminated) for making a call which he believed to be suboptimal from an ICM perspective. The two had been bickering at each other for some time at the previous table and V5's call had re-ignited their quarrel. From memory, the exact quote was “shocking call again but i wouldnt expect you to knw anythng about ICM or poker for that matter.”
In my view, this comment is possibly the worst thing you can say at a poker table. Not only did the villain come across as an egg, he gave away his position on the learning curve.
I'd only played with him for an hour and a bit so I didn't have any major read on him, though I did somewhat deduce the following:
-That he has an understanding of call/shove strategy at this stage of a tournament. This extends to an undertanding of Dollar EV and he may be assisted by some software.
-That he's inexperienced (based on his comment and a sharkscope search which reveals he only started playing MTTs 3 months ago)
-That he's possibly tight/passive.
Our only confrontation up to this point was a rare 3 bet, on his part, to my preflop raise- I folded. And four small vs big blind confrontations which went:
I raised, he folded x 2
I folded (permitting a walk) x 2
Tournament stage
Current blinds/antes:
SB: 2,000
BB: 4,000
Antes: 400
Thus, the preflop pot is 7,600
Approximate stack sizes are as follows:
Hero: 160,000
Villain under investigation (to my left): 170,000
V3: 60,000
V4: 80,000
Prize structure:
1st: 684 Euro
2nd: 480 Euro
3rd: 360 Euro
4th: 269 Euro
It occurred to me at this point that I could make life uncomfortable for the Villain by shoving on his big blind every time the play folds to me- that is, I could shove with a random hand. I proceeded to do this 5 times out of the subsequent 7 orbits- the other 2 orbits were initiated by raises from V3/V4, to which I folded. On my 6th attempt, with stack sizes set out above, I was snapped called by AQo.
As it happens, my 83o ran out as winner but that is neither here nor there. After the game i broke down some ICM calcs from the villain's perspective and this is what I found:
Assuming I have a random hand, the villain should only be calling my shove with hands that have 67% or more equity. This covers the following:
-AKs
-88+
Everything else, yes even AKo, should be folded- though it's close. Go through the calcs here if you have the time:
Briefly, approximate stack sizes and ICMs are:
a) If villain folds,
Hero: 165,000, 501 Euro
Villain under investigation (to my left): 165,000, 501 Euro
V3: 60,000, 379 Euro
V4: 80,000, 411 Euro
b) If villain calls (and wins),
Hero: 330,000, 617 Euro
V3: 60,000, 441 Euro
V4: 80,000, 466 Euro
Villains Chip EV:
617*.67 + 269*0.33 = (roughly) 501
So my question is- why don't we see more shoving between large stacks at final tables, especially in wide fields where payouts are top heavy? Am i missing something?
January 16, 2014
Just because he's losing equity when he makes a sub optimal ICM call doesn't mean that it goes to you, the equity goes to everyone else at the table. The shorter the stacks the more they benefit from 2 larger stacks coliding. This reminds me of a time I played a small tournament in Bumfuck MN. It paid 3 and was on the bubble. I had 6bb everyone else had 20bb+. The super aggro big stack slow played aces, then won a flip, and just like that I was in 2nd.
You want to make ICM plays that benefit you, not everyone else. Sure you should be shoving wide, but not any 2 cards, and not 83o, especially if it's past the bubble. The only exception would be if his stack was like 10% of yours and it didn't matter much if you lost.
April 26, 2013
Very good point about the quity going to the other players, JD! About the 10%-rule, I think Harrington said so in one of his books, but what I heard it's nonesense, as a bigstack you generally should target medium-stacks. Smallstacks will have an easier time playing perfect against you (allin-call/shove/fold).
I think this is a very interesting topic and would love to hear answers from some pros.
January 16, 2014
If it's the smallest stack then they have nothing to lose and you're lighting chips on fire unless it's a +chips EV shove. But if there is a signifigant payjump or 2 at stake, and they can't hurt your stack too much, then let em rip. So I think there is merit in that rule. The problem is in these live tournaments no one gives a shit about a couple hundred euro or dollar pay jump, so you can throw moves that require a good ICM fold out the window.
Something I noticed in the small buyin Bovada tournaments I play is if it's a $20 buy in or less on one gives a shit about bubbling or any of the FT pay jumps. In fact they seem to think you are always “making a move”, so they widen thier spazz out range by quite a bit. If it's $30+ where the min cash is $50+, they give more shits, narrow thier spazz out range, and make tighter ICM correct folds (every once in a while they'll even fold AJs and TT).
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