View Plans & Pricing

If you are signed in and are seeing this message, please be sure you have selected a user name in My Profile. The forum requires it.
A A A
Search

— Forum Scope —




— Match —





— Forum Options —





Minimum search word length is 3 characters - maximum search word length is 84 characters

Topic Rating: 0 Topic Rating: 0 Topic Rating: 0 Topic Rating: 0 Topic Rating: 0 Topic Rating: 0 (0 votes) 
sp_TopicIcon
Error on final table
nkarapet
Grinding Micros
Members
Forum Posts: 60
Member Since:
November 6, 2018
sp_UserOfflineSmall Offline
1
July 2, 2019 - 9:35 pm
sp_Permalink sp_Print
0

Hi

Last Sunday I was playing a $600 tournament in local casino and believe made a mistake on a final table.

7 handed and people start “thinking” about a deal. No tiny stacks on the table, I have 20BB, 3 more guys same stacks, couple with huge stacks.40 minutes on the final table, nothing too out of order. A young guy (no read on him, but somehow decided he does understand something about poker and the situation) with 18BB RFI 2BB from HJ, CO fold and I from BU look at my pocket 99. So I decided to shove. I think 20BB is a little bit awkward stack size, kinda between PUSH/FOLD and OPEN stack size and he might open something he will be willing to fold to shove. Also I was hoping he is aware of high probability for a deal which will be great for short stacks. 

Does anything above make sense? Is it a mistake? 

DuckinDaDeck
Hunting Max EV
Sunday Major
Members
Forum Posts: 284
Member Since:
February 8, 2017
sp_UserOfflineSmall Offline
2
July 3, 2019 - 2:15 pm
sp_Permalink sp_Print sp_EditHistory
0

I think shoving 99 BTN vs HJ open on 18bb effective is your only logical play in this scenario. Folding would be atrocious and calling would pretty much guarantee that you under-realize your equity unless the villain plays overly straightforward postflop. Raising to a size less than a shove doesn’t accomplish much either: raise-folding would be even worse than folding, so the difference from shoving is that either we get flatted and see a flop with <1 SPR that is very likely to contain at least 1 overcard, or villain somehow decides they have fold equity and shoves a wider range than they would have called our shove with. Neither option is very likely, and neither is very favorable. With a middling pair, getting the villain to shove wider is unlikely to be higher chipEV than maximizing our fold equity, and it becomes much worse when factoring in ICM. One benefit to raising small is that we can avoid going broke the odd times that one of the blinds wakes up with a monster, but that’s not enough to justify it, as it happens <10% of the time and we’ll always have a bit of equity even when they do have us crushed.

Worth noting, this would likely change a lot if the villain had us covered AND there were multiple shorter stacks at the table. Hard to make general statements about how much would need to change for 99 to prefer flatting or even folding, but safe to say it would take a fair amount.

I would caution against attributing too much weight to thoughts like whether or not our opponent understands final table situations and/or whether they’re more likely to play tight because of the prospect of an upcoming deal. Granted, those factors are likely to influence our opponent’s decision making, but only at the margins. It might be the difference between villain calling our shove with a hand like AJs, AQo or maybe TT, but even that is pretty hopeful. It should absolutely make it harder for hands like ATs, KQs and AJo to get the money in, which is good for us, but it’s easy to overestimate how much these thoughts play into villains’ decision making, which can lead to costly errors. It doesn’t matter in this specific hand, I think 99 is a clear shove, but you may want to be wary of overly adjusting to these factors in the future. If you had chosen to rip it in with 55 or KJs in this spot, I’d want you to look very closely at your thought processes.

edit: Just reread your post and wanted to add that I expect most villains to have a reasonably wide raise-folding range in this scenario. At least, I would in villain’s seat, unless the players yet to act have been especially active with 3bets. I think I’d be looking to open ~19% of hands and only getting in with between 3.77 – 7.39% of hands. AQs,AK,TT for sure, as wide as ATs,AJ,KQs,88 based on my read of the situation, blind structure, relative skill level of the table, payouts, etc.

3for3
High Stakes Shark
Members
Forum Posts: 201
Member Since:
July 24, 2018
sp_UserOfflineSmall Offline
3
July 5, 2019 - 11:39 am
sp_Permalink sp_Print
0

Why do you assume a deal would be good for the short stacks?  Will it be an even deal, or ICM based?  

 

I would think most Villains would overfold to your jam, so, yes, I would jam here.  

nkarapet
Grinding Micros
Members
Forum Posts: 60
Member Since:
November 6, 2018
sp_UserOfflineSmall Offline
4
July 5, 2019 - 9:22 pm
sp_Permalink sp_Print
0

Thanks DuckinDaDeck for nice analysis. A lot of good stuff.

I should say that after final table I realized how much things I need to think and be prepared for the time. And posts like that are very helpful.

nkarapet
Grinding Micros
Members
Forum Posts: 60
Member Since:
November 6, 2018
sp_UserOfflineSmall Offline
5
July 5, 2019 - 9:24 pm
sp_Permalink sp_Print
0

3for3

I run some numbers and here what I get

icm deal result

biggest stacks suffer toward the shorter stacks.

Forum Timezone: America/New_York

Most Users Ever Online: 2780

Currently Online:
48 Guest(s)

Currently Browsing this Page:
1 Guest(s)

Top Posters:

bennymacca: 2616

Foucault: 2067

folding_aces_pre_yo: 1133

praetor: 1033

theginger45: 924

P-aire 146: 832

Turbulence: 768

The Riceman: 731

duggs: 591

florianm1: 588

Newest Members:

sdmathis89

ne0x00

adrianvaida2525

Anteeater

Laggro

Philbro

Forum Stats:

Groups: 4

Forums: 24

Topics: 12705

Posts: 75003

 

Member Stats:

Guest Posters: 1063

Members: 12007

Moderators: 2

Admins: 5

Administrators: RonFezBuddy, Killingbird, Tournament Poker Edge Staff, ttwist, Carlos

Moderators: sitelock, sitelock_1