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Early stage MP vs UTG 3x and aggro OOP preflop reraiser. Suspected bad fold by me.
derSchwartz
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October 22, 2014 - 1:59 pm
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Morning,

I may be letting this guy psych me out.  Seen him tearing it up at 5-10 dollar stakes, he sharkscopes decently at $15 avg stakes having made $4k on Merge.  After a small but reasonable n=134, TURTLEFARTS plays 31/22 with 8% open limp, 8% 3bet, 25% squeeze, 86% cbet, 63% steal, and 50% resteal.

This came up in the first few hands of a $10 Turbo MTT.  I have no information on the UTG raiser.

 

Merge Network $600 Gtd – [Turbo, Deep] (79515292-1) No Limit Hold'em Tournament – t15.00/t30.00 Blinds – 9 players – View hand 2597132
TournamentPokerEdge.com Hand History Converter

DJIA9900 (BB): t10405.00 346.83 BBs
OGKUSH215 (UTG): t4288.00 142.93 BBs
jayyhicks (Utg+1): t4895.00 163.17 BBs
SapoCocas20 (MP1): t5000.00 166.67 BBs
kattrink (MP2): t5000.00 166.67 BBs
Hero (HJ): t4985.00 166.17 BBs
lobsterbisk (CO): t4955.00 165.17 BBs
RichSS1 (BTN): t5000.00 166.67 BBs
TURTLEFARTS (SB): t5472.00 182.40 BBs

Pre Flop: (t45) Hero is with 9 of diamonds 9 of spades
OGKUSH215 raises to t105.00, 3 folds,

I don't know this player, and since he's UTG making a swift typed 3x on the third hand, I keep his range open to weak holdings, but weight it towards 44-AA, A9s+, ATo+, KJs+, KQo+, JTs+.  My hand is strong, but there are players behind me and I'm not going to be able to call a reraise if the UTG player 4bets me.

Hero calls t105, 1 fold, RichSS1 calls t105, TURTLEFARTS raises to t555.00, 1 fold, OGKUSH215 calls t450

TURTLEFARTS is an aggressive player, but he doesn't squeeze for zero reason or because he read it in HoH.  I believe he has a strong range of around 77+, AQs+ and AK here.  I think that in game I was actually placing TURTLEFARTS on more like 99+ and AK.

UTG's range is now more comfortably what it was weighted towards above.

Do I need to turn this into a set mine/extremely cautious thin value play on proper boards?  I don't feel like re-raising gets me into anything but a world of pain.  Am I wrong?

There is of course one more player to act, but he's not going to reraise too commonly.

Folding seems bad, but it is what I did. 

Hero folds.

I wonder if I'm thinking about why it's wrong correctly:  I believe it's wrong because I had both direct and implied odds here, and that even with just direct odds, I wouldn't have needed much more to justify a set mine.  The pot was 1350 and I needed to call 450.

Part of what I think confused me into folding was the rule about not calling off more than1/10 to 1/15 of the stack to set mine.  But I think now I realize that rule only applies to set mining solely for implied odds, whereas here I had both direct and implied odds.

folding_aces_pre_yo
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October 22, 2014 - 2:24 pm
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I think calling the raise is fine  espically when stacks are so deep, i think a squeeze is  very much unlikely at the early stages of the tourney unless someone actually has a good hand to 3-bet with. Now that tintial raiser has flat the 3-bet , i think calling along is correct , since you have good direct/implied odds as u said in OP.

 

you should play your hand cautiousely though , for instance if you get a flop thats 4 5 8 , you may stil be behind against higher pars like TT+ and if u do flop a set , we will very much likely get stacks in and get paid of by hands like overpair or even top pair type of hands.

Foucault

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October 22, 2014 - 4:09 pm
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I think anything other calling at both opportunities would be a mistake.

Edit: Also agree that even when you flop an overpair you should generally be folding to a c-bet.

NeverAA
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October 22, 2014 - 4:19 pm
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Hi guys,

I think this is a fold for me unlike you guys think. You are talking about implied odds, but that only applies if you hit your set in this setting. Chances of hitting a set on the flop is about 12%. An overcard hitting the board on the flop when you are holding pocket 99s are about 70%, but even then you cannot play the hand comfortably.

So even though you have about 1 to 3 pot odds, I dont see any world where they will just check this hand down/stay calm. And dont forget, after the flop, you are exposed to the sandwich effect.

I will not do the exact math, this is as much as my thought process gets at a table because of time constraints. So, I will keep it at that here as well. Also, Andrew knows that stuff way better anyway 🙂

On top of everything, we dont know the tendencies of 1 villain, put aside ranging him. And it is very early in the tournament. I always prefer playing small pots and in position at the early stages.

Because of all the reasons, thats a fold for me. After all, we are folding pocket 99. Our hand does not dominate. Their cards will most prob be live and I prefer not to get into trouble this early in a tournament…

derSchwartz
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October 22, 2014 - 5:07 pm
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I must say the implied odds, even considering that it is uncommon that they come into play, do seem to make this worthwhile.

And I certainly agree that I should be folding to a cbet when the 9 doesn’t hit. That is a discipline that I had been working on for a long time, and feel I’ve finally gotten it a few months ago. Wouldn’t be surprised if one day I’m trying something new or difficult and temporarily forget or backtrack, but more or less gotten that. Is there still room to take the pot down when it goes check check check and the turn is a fourth blank, maybe even giving the 9s a straight draw? I imagine there could be, but I hope to have learned my lesson by now not to stack off to KK here when 247 flops.

Foucault

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October 23, 2014 - 11:52 pm
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It’s costing you 450 to see the flop, so you need to average a profit of at least 4500 when you hit a set to make a pure set mine profitable. There is over 1500 already in the pot, so you just need to win two pot-sized bets from the postflop action. Doesn’t seem too unreasonable considering both Villains have pretty strong ranges. Plus you have position so every once in a while you might manage to bluff or show down the winner unimproved.

NeverAA
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October 24, 2014 - 11:46 am
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Hey Andrew,

 

Is that 4500 coming from 1 to 10 rule. I thought it was 1-20. Can you please clarify? Also, would you have made the call with pocket 22 as we know we are only set mining here?

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