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Early in MSOP#1 with AK
Xeunain
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June 2, 2011 - 2:15 am
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Hey everyone, I just wanted to get some opinions on what the optimal move on this flop is. The villian is currently running a 48/34 over ~50 hands. I've seen him 3-bet once from the blinds so far but he didn't show down.

Full Tilt Poker No Limit Hold'em Tournament – t20.00/t40.00 Blinds – 9 players
TournamentPokerEdge.com Hand History Converter

Sergei_Kolpak (CO): t5490.00 137.25 BBs
19NNN (BTN): t2915.00 72.88 BBs
fish4nuts (SB): t2770.00 69.25 BBs
Mohnatum (BB): t5165.00 129.12 BBs
not a mubber (UTG): t1855.00 46.38 BBs
Czaxor (UTG+1): t4195.00 104.88 BBs
Hero (UTG+2): t3295.00 82.38 BBs
cluelesslucky (MP1): t2620.00 65.50 BBs
Irimba (MP2): t2720.00 68 BBs

Pre Flop: (t60) Hero is UTG+2 with A of diamonds K of diamonds
2 folds, Hero raises to t120, 2 folds, Sergei_Kolpak calls t120, 19NNN calls t120, 1 fold, Mohnatum raises to t455, Hero calls t335, 1 fold, 19NNN calls t335

Flop: (t1505) T of clubs A of spades 2 of diamonds (3 players)
Mohnatum bets t835.00

 

mmfitter
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June 2, 2011 - 6:03 am
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He's got alot more bluffs in his range than made hands that are beating you.

I wouldn't wanta make him fold all those bluffs by raising even though his sizing hints hes not going anywhere. But then u see

alot of weird thing early in mtts.

KingBustYou
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June 2, 2011 - 7:18 am
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Villain seems super aggro but if it's only the second time he's 3bet, he most likely has a hand. 

Don't mind the flat and hitting TPTK I'd just c/c. The only hands villain would 3bet here I think are 1010+, AQ+ since it's only the second time in 50 hands. He either has you crushed w 1010/AA or will shut down on the turn or double barrel bluff with JJ-KK or thin valuebet AQ(/AJ?).

Since there are already two aces out there it's highly unlikely villain has aces, if he does I don't see much chance to get away from your hand.

Villain could have 1010, but with an early open and two flatters I see a lot more value in flatting 1010 behind to setmine being so deep rather than trying to pick up a small pot preflop or isolate a player. But I don't know what kind of (thinking) player villain is or that he just always “ABC” 3bets 1010+.

There are defenitely turncards you rather wouldn't like to see like a Q, J, K, as these cards could make villain's hand improve to two pair (AQ/AJ), a set (JJ-KK) or possibly but less likely the nut straight if he was 3betting a (suited) broadway hand.

Check-raising the flop will only get action from hands that crush you and will scare away most showdown value hands like AJ/AQ. Plus there is still a player to act behind you who could've flopped top two or a set.

Being oop I don't see a possibility to 4bet without folding to a 5betjam as you will have to make your 4bet bigger than if you were ip commiting (nearly) half your stack.

So in this case, flat pre, c/c flop and reevaluate the turn to see what 19NNN does and what the turn brings and if you decide to check again or lead out.

Tough spot, very good hand to discuss.

bennymacca
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June 2, 2011 - 7:41 am
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kingbustyou, we are getting led into by the preflop 3bettor, we have position on this guy, so there is no c/c.  but, i would 100% be flatting here – the only hand that will get it in with you that you beat is possibly AQ but you may as well flat and just let AQ continue firing anyway. 

 

the pot is bloated anyway because of the multiple runners preflop, so i dont see any reason to take the lead away from villain here – if you call flop you can pretty much get it in on turn or river if you like. in fact, if villain checks turn, i would nearly check back  and call any river or shove for value myself. 

hapetimes
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June 2, 2011 - 8:36 am
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i flat here

we dont really get any vlaue from worse hands except possibly AQ

and it's probably unlikely, but when we flat we hope he 2 barrells some of his range that may fold if we show aggression on the flop (KK,QQ,JJ)

G0liath
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June 2, 2011 - 9:12 am
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This is a prime opportunity to overplay your hand. You only have 1 pair and your pretty deep to start in what is now a 3bet pot. On this flop your either crushed or crushing; way ahead or way behind; >85% fav or >85% dog. No need to raise because it only serves the hands that crush you by folding out the hands you crush.

Flat and evaluate.

hawkeyeK9
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June 3, 2011 - 11:33 am
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I think this is a good spot to 4bet pre. Would isolate the players and give you back control.

On this flop we are not beat by many hands at all. AA, AT, TT is all we are really worried about on this flop. I raise this flop and avoid drawey turn cards. If you get 4bet on the flop then I think we can lay it down sometimes but vs. the aggro player I am getting more chips in the middle on this flop!

Hagbard Celine
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June 3, 2011 - 1:06 pm
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not sure i really like 4betting PF. he's 3betting OOP into several players, so i think his range is going to be pretty strong despite his stats.

 

flop is a super easy call. he can be c-betting plenty of worse hands, plus if we raise we're just going to be getting him to fold a bunch and get it in against TT/AK/AQ.

hawkeyeK9
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June 3, 2011 - 8:04 pm
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I should have read it better. Didnt notice the 3bet was oop.

FkCoolers
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June 4, 2011 - 5:47 pm
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So we’re calling flop and getting it in on the Turn if we flat the three bet and flat the c-bet? I guess I can see that. We can never fold once we take this line.

I think I 4 bet, though, and I make it a committing size instead of a click back cute size.

I know he’s 3 betting OOP into multiple people but we have card removal against AA and AK and our AK is suited. This pot is so juicy and we have more than enough dead money in there now to take a big flip.

And, it’s AK suited.

Pettman18
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June 4, 2011 - 11:18 pm
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Flat pre

Flat flop, fold if 19NNN reraises here after our flat. He isnt raising in a multiway pot on this dry of a board without TPTK beat (i always presume)

Presuming 19NNN folds we can continue to call for value unless future streets get horribly bad for us

llop777
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June 5, 2011 - 1:30 am
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what is oop and tptk ?

G0liath
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June 5, 2011 - 4:14 am
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Out of position, top pair top kicker

your welcome 🙂

FkCoolers
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June 5, 2011 - 8:58 am
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I still don't get why we're gonna station it up here. If it's a cooler the money goes in no matter what. 

Not sure what turn card people are seriously considering fold to. If he has a set of Tens we're not folding if the Turn is a K or Q. A diamond makes it very easy for us to now get it in. And most of the time it's gonna be other cards that just don't change anything. 

G0liath
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June 5, 2011 - 9:14 am
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We’re calling to get value on turn/riv from the part of his range that would fold to our raise.

When we raise his cbet here in a 3bet pot we’re telling him he’s crushed unless he has 2 pair or better, allowing him to play perfectly against us. When we flat we could still have AJ/JJ/random floats in our range opening up the possibility of him spazzing out with a wider range on the turn.

FkCoolers
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June 5, 2011 - 9:28 am
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I might be thinking about it all wrong. I don't think he'd 3 bet pre with any Ax except AK and maybe AQ. 

He will 3 bet KK, QQ, maybe JJ… doubtful TT. 

When this flop comes he's firing out because he 3 bet. 

If he does have these type of hands he will shut down once called unless his hand improves. If we minraise or make an inducing raise on the flop he might spaz out and we get max value. 

It's basically a way ahead/way behind hand and when you're way ahead you should not be getting value on future streets in this spot so why not go for it on the flop?

G0liath
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June 5, 2011 - 9:44 am
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If we are way ahead then we don’t risk much by calling, our equity is pretty solid. If we’re way behind then raising is a disaster.

So many people flat the cbet these days he’s not always shutting down when we flat. If the turn blanks and it’s checked through we may get a street of value on the river from his KK QQ AJ AQ that should be folding to our raise on the flop.

FkCoolers
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June 5, 2011 - 10:08 am
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Fair enough. 

Just my opinion but what you're saying holds a lot more weight in a HU pot than this situation. If all players involved are competent the caller in this spot really should have some sort of Ax or better to flat the c-bet. Maybe I give people too much credit. 

But again, not sure if raising is a disaster because are we honestly folding this hand under any circumstances? If we flat the c-bet we basically have the 2/3 the size of the pot left behind in our stack and I can't size folding a turn shove no matter what card comes under those circumstances. 

So long as you are flatting with the intention of always getting it in on the Turn it seems like an ok line to take. 

hawkeyeK9
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June 5, 2011 - 11:16 am
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Glad someone sees it like me Coolers :). I second guessed my thinking with all the replies but I think both sides have a point. Depends on your style I guess.

KingBustYou
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June 5, 2011 - 11:50 am
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bennymacca said:

kingbustyou, we are getting led into by the preflop 3bettor, we have position on this guy, so there is no c/c.  but, i would 100% be flatting here – the only hand that will get it in with you that you beat is possibly AQ but you may as well flat and just let AQ continue firing anyway. 

 

the pot is bloated anyway because of the multiple runners preflop, so i dont see any reason to take the lead away from villain here – if you call flop you can pretty much get it in on turn or river if you like. in fact, if villain checks turn, i would nearly check back  and call any river or shove for value myself. 

My bad.

G0liath
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June 5, 2011 - 12:18 pm
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I think style is a big consideration also. If you are a super agro player like Bigdog for example, then raising for value here is definitley the best play because they’re more likely to think your full of it and stack off with AJ AQ.

bennymacca
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June 5, 2011 - 9:49 pm
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FkCoolers said:

I might be thinking about it all wrong. I don't think he'd 3 bet pre with any Ax except AK and maybe AQ. 

He will 3 bet KK, QQ, maybe JJ… doubtful TT. 

When this flop comes he's firing out because he 3 bet. 

If he does have these type of hands he will shut down once called unless his hand improves. If we minraise or make an inducing raise on the flop he might spaz out and we get max value. 

It's basically a way ahead/way behind hand and when you're way ahead you should not be getting value on future streets in this spot so why not go for it on the flop?

if we flat flop, we only have a pot sized bet left, and i think we can check back turn a lot of the time, and i think a lot of villains will spazz shove river with basically their whole range given that villain still has chips left if he loses. 
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