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Early in 888 $24 - river lead
Lek
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November 8, 2013 - 1:01 pm
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is my river lead bad here?

 

Surely this guy (27/18 from 33) has some suiteddiamond stuff in his bet turn range here right? I really should be just c/c here yeah? Especially early on?

Sorry for basic questions (more to follow lol) just I'm really trying to strip things back to basics so any help appreciated 🙂

 

Please also comment on my entire line if you think I played entire hand bad, ie I know I'm getting slightly bad odds calling the flop on that board but I'm deep enough to call one bet here surely?

 

Thanks guys 

*i tried using HH converter but won't work with 888 hands? Had a quick look in the forums and cant find a solution to this so please let me know if there is a way around this

 

#Game No : 574581091
***** 888poker Hand History for Game 574581091 *****
$25/$50 Blinds No Limit Holdem - *** 
Tournament #52424481 $22 + $2 - Table #25 (Real Money)
Seat 2 is the button
Total number of players : 9
Seat 1: Insanidade ( $7,199 )
Seat 2: govand87 ( $3,263 )
Seat 3: LEK83 ( $4,175 )
Seat 4: Extra__large ( $4,249 )
Seat 5: OOOUUUUUUU ( $4,195 )
Seat 6: DomiH78 ( $2,766 )
Seat 7: mull56 ( $4,156 )
Seat 9: _AlphaMale_1 ( $3,975 )
Seat 10: whoranzone_ ( $3,775 )
LEK83 posts small blind [$25]
Extra__large posts big blind [$50]
** Dealing down cards **
Dealt to LEK83 [ Ac, Ts ]
OOOUUUUUUU folds
DomiH78 folds
mull56 folds
_AlphaMale_1 raises [$100]
whoranzone_ folds
Insanidade calls [$100]
govand87 calls [$100]
LEK83 calls [$75]
Extra__large folds
** Dealing flop ** [ 4h, Jd, Kc ]
LEK83 checks
_AlphaMale_1 bets [$200]
Insanidade folds
govand87 calls [$200]
LEK83 calls [$200]
** Dealing turn ** [ Qd ]
LEK83 checks
_AlphaMale_1 checks
govand87 bets [$525]
LEK83 calls [$525]
_AlphaMale_1 folds
** Dealing river ** [ Ad ]
LEK83 ??
Kalculater
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November 8, 2013 - 8:53 pm
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I dont think he has many flush draw combos in his range. Most hands he would likely have that would float the flop and hit a draw on the turn is negated by the Qd falling and the Ad falling on the river. (QTdd, KQdd, Axdd).

 

That means I like a bet/fold here for a little less than half pot but even then given the low combos of flushes he could have here i think i might find it hard to fold. The only reasonable hand is KTdd and the unlikely T9dd, as i dont think he will be calling the flop much. Betting something like ~800 as I think he will call with hands we beat such as 2 pairs and sets he decided to call with preflop (i think he squeezes with JJ, KK). He has 2.44k behind when we reach the river and he really shouldnt be jamming worse unless hes Spazzy McStubborn from Spewville. 

 

One thing I would like others to comment on, is since we are unlikely to fold to his river shove and given his range is probably mostly 2 pairs, sets and Tx hands we chop with, can we bet bigger for value here? Something around 1.2-1.5k? 

 

EDIT: You asked about your river lead, yet the sizing wasnt in your HH. Definitely an interesting spot here. FYI i probably am not overcalling AT often in the BB. We are OOP and is a hand that has reverse implied odds.

theginger45

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November 8, 2013 - 9:23 pm
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I think preflop is usually fine, but it's only really fine if you're not going to be speculating OOP on flops like this. I think c/r flop is way, way better than calling. You don't have enough implied odds to call the flop because villains' ranges aren't strong enough, and it's going to be harder for you to get paid off multiway anyway since turn is going to go check-check-check so often.

When you bink the turn, you need to be aware that its a card that hits both other players a decent amount too, and improves a lot of hands to pair+draw instead of just pair. However, very few of these hands are going to be strong enough to bet the turn with in a 3-way pot (hands like AQ, KT, JT, maybe even AK will check turn), so I don't hate leading the turn. The only problem with it is that we can't ever really be pure bluffing when we do it, so we're relying on villains being fairly clueless about what our actual range is.

Once the turn goes check-bet, though, I think its a 100% mandatory raise. Once AlphaMale checks the turn and you call a bet, he's almost never going to have a hand that can call. Maybe the only candidate is a hand like KT or QT that has a solid pair+open ender, but even then it's probably a bad call in his spot. Your focus should therefore be on getting value from the other villain, who has 2.5k or so behind and a very strong range for betting the turn. I think a small check-raise – small enough that it looks like you could still fold to AlphaMale's shove – would be best here. He's almost never going to fold to it, and he's going to shove over it very often. Once you call, however, you're just risking a card like this coming off on the river – a scare card for a lot of his hands, or a flush card, or a card that pairs the board and either boats him up or counterfeits a 2pair hand.

The problem with leading river is that when you lead river here, you have Tx or a flush, probably 99% of the time. He just can't possibly put any chips into the pot with worse, unless he's really bad. Leading river folds out everything you beat. Checking river isn't great, because he checks back almost always with a lot of his sets and 2pair hands, but you do at least give him the chance to turn a weaker 2pair hand into a bluff or try to valuebet really thin with a set. We're not worried at all about the flush, because he actually more or less needs to have a royal flush in order to have one, unless we think he calls preflop with a lot of weaker Kx suited hands. The only reason the flush card is bad for us is because it makes any potential river lead by us look even stronger, and makes him more likely to fold hands weaker than a straight.

So, in summary, call pre, fold flop, raise turn, check/call river.

Kalculater
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November 8, 2013 - 9:34 pm
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TheGinger45, if we are folding this flop to multi-way action what sort of boards are we looking for when we overcall ATo in the BB? Im guessing we are only really continuing post if we flop 2 pair, trips (mostly TTx), a flopped straight or OESD on a 978, QJ9 flop.

 

Do you know where or how there is information to calculate how often we hit this?

 

Thanks

 

EDIT: im torn between check/calling this river and value betting smallish to get called by 2 pairs/ passive sets. To thinking players they may discount these backdoor flushes from our range entirely which polarises us to either a straight or a bluff/TVB with weaker 2pr's. If this would be the case, shouldnt it be better to bet ourselves?

smallcat66
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November 9, 2013 - 11:31 am
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You are definetely getting the right implied odds to call on the flop and you can call with no one that can raise after your call.

You probably should as Ginger says , check raise the turn.

I would check call the river as I would be in a world of hurt if I raised and got shoved on.

PS. I am a level one thinker

Lek
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November 9, 2013 - 1:14 pm
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Kalculater said:

I dont think he has many flush draw combos in his range. Most hands he would likely have that would float the flop and hit a draw on the turn is negated by the Qd falling and the Ad falling on the river. (QTdd, KQdd, Axdd).

 

That means I like a bet/fold here for a little less than half pot but even then given the low combos of flushes he could have here i think i might find it hard to fold. The only reasonable hand is KTdd and the unlikely T9dd, as i dont think he will be calling the flop much. Betting something like ~800 as I think he will call with hands we beat such as 2 pairs and sets he decided to call with preflop (i think he squeezes with JJ, KK). He has 2.44k behind when we reach the river and he really shouldnt be jamming worse unless hes Spazzy McStubborn from Spewville. 

 

One thing I would like others to comment on, is since we are unlikely to fold to his river shove and given his range is probably mostly 2 pairs, sets and Tx hands we chop with, can we bet bigger for value here? Something around 1.2-1.5k? 

 

EDIT: You asked about your river lead, yet the sizing wasnt in your HH. Definitely an interesting spot here. FYI i probably am not overcalling AT often in the BB. We are OOP and is a hand that has reverse implied odds.

lol sorry what a moron I am missing that off! i led for 1.1k – it felt too much at the time

Lek
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November 9, 2013 - 1:29 pm
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Kalculater said:

TheGinger45, if we are folding this flop to multi-way action what sort of boards are we looking for when we overcall ATo in the BB? Im guessing we are only really continuing post if we flop 2 pair, trips (mostly TTx), a flopped straight or OESD on a 978, QJ9 flop.

 

Thanks guys for the in depth feedback, appreciate it. Would too love to hear further from Ginger or Kalculater's question.  So tough for a donk like me to fold that flop

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