April 2, 2018
Hi All,
Need some help for a noob to the site (and born again poker player). I’m struggling with what to do against a donk bet. One example is here.
–
No-Limit Hold’em Tournament, 300/600 Blinds (8 handed) – Converted at …..verter.com
UTG+1 (t41,114)
MP1 (t4,472)
MP2 (t11,633)
Hero (CO) (t29,356)
Button (t19,297)
SB (t14,211)
BB (t7,648)
UTG (t19,740)
Hero’s M: 32.62
Preflop: Hero is CO with A, K
1 fold, UTG+1 raises t1,630, 2 folds, Hero raises t4,500, 3 folds, UTG+1 calls t2,870
Flop: (t9,900) 7, 5, Q (2 players)
UTG+1 bets t5,230, Hero folds
Total pot: t9,900
–
I’ve only seen the Villain play 35 hands but he’s playing VPIP29/PFR20 – I’ve seen him fold twice to a 3bet, although i still feel like i should be 3betting here. Because he didn’t 4bet me, i’m taking most premium hands out of his range so, possibly, leaving AQ/77/55 within his range? After he donk bets in to me, i don’t know where to go, or what to think.
Any thoughts? Was my 3bet correct? What range are you putting him on? How do i play donk bets??
I’m really struggling with this, i can’t figure if he’s strong or betting because he’s missed and is trying to buy the pot.
Thanks in advance,
Jon
PS. I couldn’t get the HH converter to work on an HEM2 exported hand, is this format ok?
TPE Pro
December 6, 2012
Poker is a game of incomplete information. It will be quite common for you to find yourself in situations where you don’t know what exactly your opponent is doing. In fact, good players will *deliberately* play different kinds of hands in the same way. What I’m getting at is that you are asking the wrong question when you say, “I can’t figure if he’s strong or betting because he’s missed and is trying to buy the pot.” It could be either (eg he may only play this way with strong hands, or only with weak hands, but you have no way of knowing which), or it could be both (that is, he might actually play either sort of hand this way). The question is how can you make good decisions despite this uncertainty?
When you’re unable to determine what exactly your opponent is doing, as you often will be, the key is to avoid playing in a way that will reward *any* particular strategy he *could be* pursuing. That means that you want to avoid folding so often that this would be a very profitable bluff for him, but you also want to avoid putting in so much money that this would be a very profitable value line for him.
Although you don’t know what your opponent’s range is, you do know your own range. What other hands would you have 3-bet in this situation, besides AK? Is AK one of the stronger hands you could have in this spot, or one of the weaker ones? That’s a good starting point for sorting out what you should do with it.
TPE Pro
August 25, 2012
Great advice from Andrew there.
One other suggestion – avoid calling it a ‘donk bet’. This terminology carries with it the implication that anyone who does it is automatically a ‘donk’, or bad player, or doesn’t know what they’re doing. This is going to leave you vulnerable as soon as you come up against better players who will use this line from time to time as a perfectly viable, well-balanced option in certain spots.
I think it’s better to call it a ‘lead’, since that’s a term that carries with it no inherent assumptions about what our opponent’s skill level is, or why they might be making such a bet.
February 8, 2017
Wise words from Foucault and theginger. I learned the game in a ‘feel’ based manner, and for many years I was guilty of trying to soul-read villains so that I could be sure I was making the right move. I also assumed certain plays (especially flop ‘donk’ bets) were only made by bad players. These thoughts still pop up in my decision making during hands, but I’ve mostly learned to ignore them. Its counter-intuitive but the more we improve at poker the more we learn to welcome uncertainty.
We’re just deep enough to consider flatting AK against an EP open, but 3betting is much more profitable as a default. I prefer sizing at least 3x the open, but villain’s raise is large enough that your sizing is probably okay. It’s important when we get to a difficult situation to examine the decisions which led to it, but in this case I think that would be pointless.
It’s common after 3betting to feel a sense of ownership over the pot, and it can be easy to forget that villain’s range for calling a 3bet should be pretty strong (especially since you have seen villain fold to 3bets already). It can be frustrating to face an unusual bet after our very strong holding misses the flop, but we need to maintain a strategic approach based on analyzing hand ranges.
These ranges are arbitrary and their merits are debatable (I can explain my reasoning if its helpful), but as an example:
You 3bet JJ+, AJs+, AJ+, KQs, KQ, A5s/A4s, T8s, 76s.
Villain defends 77-JJ, A9s-AQs, AQ, KTs+, QTs+, JTs, T9s and 1/3 of AA combos.
Working with these ranges on Q75 rainbow, the 3bettor has only a slight range advantage. You have more overpairs and top sets but villain has more top pairs and middle sets. Neither player is likely to have any two pairs or strong draws. With 10k in the middle, effective SPR is ~2.5.
Instead of analyzing villain’s possible leading strategies (which is valuable but difficult and extremely time consuming to do thoroughly), we can make strong decisions by considering how to play our own range.
These are some of the questions I ask myself during hand reviews:
1) How does each player’s range interact with the board?
2) How often can I fold without allowing villain to profitably bluff very wide?
3a) What hands do I want to raise for value?
3b) Which/how many bluffs do I want to raise?
4a) What are my best hands for calling?
4b) What are my easiest folds?
5a) How often do I expect villain to barrel the turn?
5b) Considering barrel frequency and possible turn cards, should I consider folding more or less than my answer to question 2?
6) What other hands can I call so that I am not overfolding?
This is not an exhaustive list of things to consider but, in my opinion, a very strong starting point. For question 2 you can use Minimum Defense Frequency as an anchor, but you want to adjust it (sometimes very heavily) based on range advantage. For all of the questions it’s important to consider not only the strength of our hand but also which hands we block villain from having. For the range I assigned villain, holding AK takes their total combos from 78 to 68, and reduces the likelihood of some of their strongest holdings.
Questions 5a/b are somewhat subjective (if you’re going to skip any I would skip those) but important to consider so that we have a more robust plan for future betting rounds.
If you are so inclined, it would be very cool if you want to share your answers to some or all of these questions. I’m not pretending for a second that I know all (or any of) the right answers, but thoroughly analyzing these spots is a great way to improve our game.
April 2, 2018
Wow!
Thanks for the reposes from all of you. Each answer, if nothing else, only shows how much i have to learn. Honestly, though, i’m enjoying the studying almost as much as i’m enjoying playing at the moment. Hopefully i can keep that momentum up, it seems like a pretty healthy attitude to have so i need to ensure i don’t overdo it and burn myself out.
Foucault – Thanks for your advice. Perhaps something i need to work on is asking the right questions during my self-analysis periods?
TheGinger45 – Point taken. I assume it’s a weak play because it’s called a donk bet. I think i have the assumption that i wouldn’t do that, so what is he trying to do? It’s something i’m going to think about and work on (ruminate? Is that the word?) and see what i come up with. Also, i prefer lead bet, i’ll go with that from now on!
DuckinDaDeck – i have every intention of sitting down, answering your questions and analysing that hand more, as i think the benefit to me would me amazing. Unfortunately (or not?), life has happened and i have to spend some time with the wife and kids. I’ll do it during tomorrows study period. One quick point, though, Question 1 – I’m working on ranging other players at the moment. I’m not great at it, but it’s getting there. I honestly have never thought about how MY range works with the board texture. I think because i know the cards, it’s obvious, but i don’t consider what my bets/raises etc represent in comparison to the board. I need to think about that more! (Foucault touches on it in his reply too; definitely something i have to work on.)
Thanks again!
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