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does this range seem about right, call or fold a shove with A8s?
folding_aces_pre_yo
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September 11, 2015 - 4:31 pm
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#Game No : 773048292
***** 888poker Hand History for Game 773048292 *****
$250/$500 Blinds No Limit Holdem – ***
Tournament #72125597 Free 10 Max (Real Money)
Seat 9 is the button
Total number of players : 9
Seat 1: vooodoocook ( $6,748 )
Seat 2: Viremu ( $6,467 )
Seat 3: Blinged ( $8,894 )
Seat 4: helderjean ( $4,836 )
Seat 5: FishJokeFish ( $10,350 )
Seat 6: solohamD ( $11,443 )
Seat 7: london_ace ( $6,621 )
Seat 9: otorva83 ( $3,013 )
Seat 10: Amauter ( $3,140 )
Viremu posts ante [$60]
Blinged posts ante [$60]
solohamD posts ante [$60]
london_ace posts ante [$60]
otorva83 posts ante [$60]
helderjean posts ante [$60]
Amauter posts ante [$60]
FishJokeFish posts ante [$60]
vooodoocook posts ante [$60]
Amauter posts small blind [$250]
vooodoocook posts big blind [$500]
** Dealing down cards **
Dealt to london_ace [ Adiamond, 8diamond]
Viremu folds
Blinged folds
helderjean raises [$4,776]
FishJokeFish folds
solohamD folds
london_ace ???

 

Hey

 

Hardly any reads on v , I’ve only seen them shove once from LP on 1 occasion as a shorty.

 

getting 1.2 to 1 on the call , hero needs 45.5% equity.

I’m pretty sure i’m ahead of their MP1 shoving range, i’d say with around 9bigs they are shoving 44+ A8s+ K9s+ Q9s+ J9s+ T9s A8o+ KJo+  QJo+ , against that range hero has 44% equity , so its a fold , i reckon we need around 48% equity on the call as we would want to do better then break even.

 

I just would like find out if you think v will be shoving wider or tighter?

what’s the optimal shoving range in this spot with this stacksize?

 

cheers.

GunnJD
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September 12, 2015 - 4:28 am
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If villain is shoving GTO then I think it is a call, but we can probably assume he isnt. 

My assumption against a random is that he is shoving tighter than he should. My guess would be ATs+ AJo+ KQs+ 88+ is our calling range.

theginger45

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September 12, 2015 - 11:40 am
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You need more than 45.5% equity here because there are three players left to act behind you.

It’s also worth noting that whether villain is shoving GTO or not is irrelevant if we’re trying to play unexploitably. We just need to decide whether we are trying to do that or not. In this case, since we think we can make a reasonable read on what we think villain’s range is and what the players behind are overcalling, we can probably make an exploitative adaptation. However, we shouldn’t stray too far from Nash ranges, because we do have limited info on this player beyond population reads (can’t tell what the buyin is from your post).

My guess is that A8s is going to be right on the border of that range, but I’m not sure. With tight players behind us I might go with this, but if they’re going to be calling somewhat correctly behind then I might ditch it.

folding_aces_pre_yo
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September 12, 2015 - 6:02 pm
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how do we decide whether we are trying to play unexploitably or not? what would be exploitable in this situation? struggling to understand this concept. I dont know much about GTO , i do know a little bit about nash ranges. So for instance if v is shoving nash we can pretty much call wider in this spot, but maybe not if we think the players behind are calling too loose? i mean i fwe know the players will overcall with a nash range would it be profitable to call V shove?  so yeah a few questions there if you can help with those 🙂

 

i do know we need more then 45.5% because we want to do better then break even, thats why i said we need around 48% equity on the call, having the players behind us is the reason for this. 

 

buy in was $3 btw.

theginger45

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September 13, 2015 - 12:35 am
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If we have a read on our opponent that we can exploit (population/player pool reads do count here) then we should try to exploit it, but if we’re readless we should be at least attempting to use Nash ranges in these push/fold spots, and play as unexploitably as possible in other spots.

If villain is shoving Nash here, then we call Nash, very simple. That’s the most profitable decision, there’s nothing we can do to increase our profit beyond that point without a read. If we only have a read on the players left to act behind, that could lead us to call very marginally wider, but that would mean we would no longer be calling at Nash, and the villain who already shoved may then be exploiting us.

Honestly, the best way to answer these questions is just to get a calculator like HoldemResources Calculator or ICMIZER and run the calculations yourself. That will teach you more than posting a push/fold hand on the forums ever could.

Also, I apologise for phrasing my first sentence poorly in my first reply. I meant to say that the reason why you need more than 45.5% is because you have three players left to act, and not necessarily because you actually need to have a 2.5% cushion in order to be better than break even on calling the shove in a vacuum. A lot of people fold away far too many edges in these spots, so waiting for a 2.5% cushion every time is going to cost you a lot. It just so happens that in this particular spot with players behind, having a cushion is desirable.

folding_aces_pre_yo
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September 13, 2015 - 8:31 pm
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Yeah ICMIZER is a powerful tool , have used it a few times in the past.

Okay so if we are readless we should play by nash ranges. The thing is how do we know if V is playing nash though? I mean even if we are wrong  (they dont play nash), it don’t matter because we wont win nor we will lose. We are pretty much breaking even when playing nash. If we can play a exploitive strategy thats even better as we will more money, but if we are wrong we could lose money if we call to tight/wide vs an opponent that is playing unexploitably.

folding_aces_pre_yo
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September 13, 2015 - 8:41 pm
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I’m wondering that if we decide to play nash vs an opponent that plays nash is there a chance that v can exploit that?  if they can , what do we do about it? how can we counter that if they figure out we are playing nash vs them? do we then decide to exploit that by not playing nash? it’s weird because by playing nash that’s an unexploitable strategy , how can that be possible if it can be exploited? 

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