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Desperately short but no fold equity
TheClubber
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June 20, 2015 - 3:27 pm
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22 player left out of 300 in $350 live tournament. There is a small pay jump at 21, but it's $200 compared to $24K top prize.

Hero has 6 BB after losing a big pot JJ < ATs. Table is 7 handed.

V1 and V2 are both old school straighforward tight retired grandpa types. They have farily clear, well-defined ranges, don't 3-bet as a bluff and probably haven't studied Push/fold charts, etc. They are solid and patient but not particularly adapting to tournament play.

Blinds 3000/6000/1000 

V1 raises 14K UTG 

V2 Calls MP1

Action folds to hero in BB with 35K. I have pocket 4s. 

Here are my options

– call and setmine (which seems crazy since giving up will leave me with under 4 BB)

– shove and hope that either I hit a set or both villains have big aces and miss

– fold and hope for a spot with some fold equity, a slightly better hand, or wait for a $200 pay bump when the next player busts

If you're not shoving 44 here, what is the worst hand you would shove?

Sen
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June 20, 2015 - 7:38 pm
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In an online tourney I'd snap get it in and hope to double/triple up. I only play $40 and below, though. Against avg. villains ranges I think this would be +EV play for sure. But with you describing villains as tight straight-forward I believe their UTG/MP range crushes you. So I'd fold. With your stacksize setmining is definitly -EV!

Worst hand to shove… maybe 66, ATs, AJo.

What happened, what do people think that have more experience in these stakes and live? Interesting post!

joelshitshow
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June 21, 2015 - 2:00 pm
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I guess it comes down to whether it's better to wait for the button and hope to open-shove with any 2. Are the people on your right loose? If so, then I think you have to shove here. If they fold most of their range, especially if they're waiting on that pay jump, you may be able to wait a couple hands.

 

What may be more important is you have to double twice to get back into it. With a hand like 4s, you're only going to win against 2 people if they don't pair or you flop a set. And although you have no fold equity in this hand, you may not have any anyway.

 

I feel like the answer to your question is simple, but I don't know what it is.

TheClubber
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June 22, 2015 - 3:31 pm
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So if I shove, most likely scenario is that both villains call and check it down unless one has a monster. While I don't think this is the optimal play for either one of them, it seems a pretty common pattern for older, live, conservative players. In theory it makes sense for one to re-raise to trap the dead money in the pot and get me alone. But if these players were theoretically sound, it wouldn't be such a profitable tournament. Anyway, in the likely, more passive scenario, the pot will be 117K and I will be up against two strong ranges. If I fold, I will have 29K left. So from a strict cEV standpoint, if my equity in the pot will give me better than 29K, I should shove. Since there's so much dead money from the antes, the break even point is a hand with about 25% equity against their ranges. (29/117).

 

Obviously the key variable will be my villain's holdings. Given the player type, I assume V1 will have a strong, uncapped range, while V2s range will be strong but probably capped. V2 is less likely to call QQ+ or AKs but he's also more likely to have some medium pairs that dominate me, so something like {99+,ATs+,KJs+,AJo+,KQo} for V1 and {JJ-66, ATs+, KJs+, QJs, AJo+, KQo} for V2. Against these specific ranges I only have 28% equity but that's still a better expected cEV than folding. Of course my range assumptions could be off. The more pairs I put in the villain's ranges and the more unpaired hands I remove, the worse my equity is. If they both have overpairs my equity is only 15%. If one has an overpair and one has AK, my equity is only 19%. But the situations where they both have unpaired overcards, and espeically when those cards are shared are best for me. For example if one has AKo and one has KQs my equity is 42% and in the extremely lucky situation where they both have AQo my equity has 61%.

Folding might get me another $200 in the short-term, but first prize is 24K, so I think it shouldn't be a big factor in my decision.

Weighing all these factors, I think a gamble is justified and probably preferable to a fold. I'm too short and villains are too deep to assume I have much fold equity in the near future. 

TheClubber
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June 22, 2015 - 3:52 pm
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As far as worst hands to shove, If I keep the range assumptions for the villains, and use 25% equity as the threshold, here's a few of my findings

– A5s has 25% equity which is right on the cusp. For other suited aces, the potential for a wheel makes a difference. A6s-A9s were folds while ATs was a call. For reasons that I don't understand, A4s-A2s were below 25% when they seem to be exactly the same hand

– Offsuit aces perform badly against the top hands. A6o has less than 20% so it's a fold. Actually most offsuit aces aren't strong enough since they are so often dominated. Even AJo is a fold with only 24.5% while AQo has a decent 30% chance.

– KQo is a fold since it is so often dominated. it only has 23% equity

– Suited broadways fare better. KTs and QTs are both over 25% against these strong ranges.

– Suited connectors and gappers do better than weak aces two players who are likely to have pairs. 76s is much better than A6o with almost 28%. 75s is at 26%. 74s is actually better than A6o but it's just under the 25% threshold. 

So my shoving range here would be something like {22+, ATs+, KTs+, QTs+, AQo+} and any suited connecters and one gappers down to 53s and 43s

SIGABA
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June 22, 2015 - 5:28 pm
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I think you have to shove here and hope that they both have overcards but no pairs.  If they do, that's a bummer.  But you have 6bb and your options are pretty limited.  You have a pair.  You only get a pair 1/17 times.  Sometimes if you fold waiting for a better spot they never come.  I think you have to gamble here and hope to triple up.

joelshitshow
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June 22, 2015 - 7:48 pm
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TheClubber said:

 

– A5s has 25% equity which is right on the cusp. For other suited aces, the potential for a wheel makes a difference. A6s-A9s were folds while ATs was a call. For reasons that I don't understand, A4s-A2s were below 25% when they seem to be exactly the same hand

 

 

A2/A3/A4 are more likely to have a counterfeited pair than A5.

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