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Could I get some advice on what I could have done differently?
HowToLogic
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April 17, 2016 - 10:43 pm
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…..C6D253191E

 

Hello, I’m not sure if I played this hand poorly or I just had a bit of a bad beat, I was assuming he had maybe a JA or two pair Jack, the river was kind of a death trap. Any advice appreciated, thanks.

almofadinhas
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April 17, 2016 - 11:29 pm
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I think is ok how you played, I do diferent on the river, instead of shoving i raise around 900, when you shove you only give V a chance to fold or call, if you reraise he might 3bet bluff sometimes.

Sounds like a cooler to me.

SIGABA
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April 17, 2016 - 11:37 pm
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It looked good to me.  I was debating raising the turn, but I think you get him to call or reraise you with all the hands that have you beat, and he folds the hands you have beaten.  I like the raise on the river.  I was thinking about raising less on the river to try and get value from just a pair of Jacks …

But yes, this was a cooler.  Unless you have notes on this guy that says when he bets 1/3 pot on all 3 streets that means he has an overpair, you can’t fold anywhere along the way.  I like it.  Well played.cool

HowToLogic
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April 17, 2016 - 11:41 pm
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Thanks for the replies guys, appreciate it. 

BalletBoi
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April 18, 2016 - 12:30 am
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I think flop and turn calls are fine – no need for a raise in either spot.

Thinking about what kind of hands he triple barrels though, what hands are you going to get called with THAT YOU BEAT from raising the river? Are Jacks (ie. AJ) really triple barreling when the King hits? If he’s tripling a bluff like AQ, he’s folding to a raise anyway. Even for a hand that improved on the river like AK – it doesn’t really make sense for him to double barrel that turn card, as it’s just not a good card to double barrel (because the hands you’re calling the flop with probably aren’t going to fold to a bet on that turn card).

Sure, it’s a “cooler.” – Two pair vs. top set. However, I don’t think you should feel obligated to raise the river, just because I don’t see you getting called by many worse hands that are in the villain’s range that he’d be tripling with.

For how’d I’d play the hand, I’d probably fold or 3-bet though pre-flop. You can easily afford to play tighter when you’re 50 big blinds or so. Furthermore, K7s has potential in position, yes, but because how deep you are, you could easily find a fold, but if you do want to play it, I don’t think it’s decent or plays well enough (even in position) to just flat, I think, even with your deeptstack, as it can create many post-flop problems. 3bet or fold for me pre.

Foucault

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April 18, 2016 - 11:29 am
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I agree with Ballet that the river shove is thinner than it may seem, but I like it nonetheless. I don’t think a K on the river really affects the value of AJ all that much (except in rare cases like this) and Villain only has about a PSB behind. If you really think V will fold all hands worse than two pair to a river shove, then this would be a very good spot to turn a small pair into a bluff (and maybe it is, just something to think about).

I think the central problem for HTL is the assumption that he should have done something differently. Just because you lost a big pot (and, as it turns out, were way behind the whole way) doesn’t mean you made a mistake. That’s just something that happens in poker sometimes.

Back to BalletBoi, I can’t see doing anything other than calling with this pre-flop. I just read a good post you made in another thread about how you just to make the most +EV decision at every opportunity, which is exactly the right mindset to have. I don’t think you can square that with the logic of “You can easily afford to play tighter when you’re 50 big blinds or so”. What you’re really saying here is because you have a lot of chips, why not just give some away?

I have a series on TPE about playing “Wide Range Situations” you should check out. The bottom line is you can’t play a blind vs blind spot the same way you would vs an UTG raise and say “K7 easily dominated better not play it!”. 

MovieFX
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April 18, 2016 - 2:57 pm
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I was going to ask what hands you are targeting for value with a river shove but you allude to this in your original post: AJ, Jx-two-pair. That seems a bit high to me. I wouldn’t expect any hands that we beat to call our shove except hero-non-believers. …but that is the problem with shoving. It takes away V’s ability to make a mistake with the kind of hands we want to call. It makes V’s decision easier. Call or fold. I’d probably just raise to around 960. 

If we raise the river to 960 and V shoves….

My initial reaction is I would call because our hand looks like a missed-flush-draw-bluff and is under-represented. After thinking about it I wonder if that is a mistake… What hand shoves over the top in this spot? J-high doesn’t. Even two-pair would be iffy to shove. It can go on for a few levels…like, why would V shove if he thinks we are bluffing the river and only better would call (ignoring the results that he made trips there…I’m talking through this using your assumed range of AJ or Jx-two-pair).

I think raise/fold may be the correct river action? What do you think?

almofadinhas
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April 18, 2016 - 7:45 pm
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MovieFX said

I think raise/fold may be the correct river action? What do you think?

I don´t think is good, if i have made the math right, if V 3bet shove you have to pay 850 on 3850pot… I think I did something wrong here lol… assuming 960 on reraise.

This game being an hyper turbo changes V´s calling range OTR? for a shove?

MovieFX
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April 18, 2016 - 8:02 pm
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Oh wow I didn’t notice this was a hyper. I’m really interested to know how this might change play for people…knowing our stack is losing value so fast. This looks like a nice deep starting stack, so maybe we can play this hand out normally, but with a SB min-raise and the way the action went down I’m probably going with this river too. How many two-pairs are we going to see (or rivers for that matter) before the game becomes shove/fold?

A few minutes in to a hyper the field is full of people doing some mind-bending things. I wouldn’t be shocked at all to see QJ or AJ call off here.

 

almofadinhas said

MovieFX said
I think raise/fold may be the correct river action? What do you think?

I don´t think is good, if i have made the math right, if V 3bet shove you have to pay 850 on 3850pot… I think I did something wrong here lol… assuming 960 on reraise.

How does math help you here with no cards to come? Math won’t give you a hand that beats V 😉

almofadinhas
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April 18, 2016 - 8:16 pm
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MovieFX said
 

almofadinhas said

MovieFX said
I think raise/fold may be the correct river action? What do you think?

I don´t think is good, if i have made the math right, if V 3bet shove you have to pay 850 on 3850pot… I think I did something wrong here lol… assuming 960 on reraise.

How does math help you here with no cards to come? Math won’t give you a hand that beats V 😉

I will fell comited here smile, not raise to fold then.

MovieFX
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April 18, 2016 - 8:35 pm
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almofadinhas said

I will fell comited here smile, not raise to fold then.

Why?

I’m sort of being facetious here to make a point. You mentioned math as a way to feel less committed but math doesn’t have feelings. I’ve folded with very little left (something like 6BB) in my stack because I felt like I couldn’t win and with a few chips I still have a chance. I could have tossed my last few in, but why? In an extreme, even getting 100:1, if I can’t possibly be winning, there is no math that will make me give up on my tournament life. I actually ran that stack back up over 60BB (I posted the hand in real-time here not too long ago: …..-the-river )

Also …..-the-hand/

almofadinhas
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April 18, 2016 - 9:01 pm
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here we have two pairs, some of the time we will be ahead of V´s 3bet OTR.

that first hand was A high by the river, and the second one I didn´t look, that jivaro link is super slow, tilts me frown

BalletBoi
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April 18, 2016 - 9:43 pm
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Foucault: I don’t think you can square that with the logic of “You can easily afford to play tighter when you’re 50 big blinds or so”.

I think for me, it’d come back to my post-flop play abilities here, which I admit, I’m still working on. That in combination with being somewhat deeperstacked here — I recently started going through the University videos and feverishly listening to the podcasts, and it sounds like the deeperstacked / early stages general consensus (maybe more towards 100bb+ or so) is that the deeper you are in tournaments, the tighter you can afford to play? 

Would you be calling here pre nearly 100% of the time? Ever 3-betting? Folding?

I’ll definitely add that video series up to my queue for the website, thx for the recommendation 🙂

MovieFX: I had a look at the hand again, I think that the stacks are to shallow to get much value out of raise-folding the river. I feel like if AJ is betting the river (however small – 1/3rd pot, whatever), he’s going to be folding almost to any size of raise. Too small and it’s going to look to suspiciously strong (like that K certainly hit you – maybe he’d make a crying call for a min-raise, tho, idk), and too large and it’s going to be committing too many of his chips to the pot I feel if he did want to call. For the wonky Jx two-pairs he could have, I don’t think he’d have those anywhere near as often as AJ to justify raising the river. Therefore, if V folds AJ to a raise almost always (however big or small), if villain would either have wonky Jx two-pair hands (albeit unlikely) or hands that beat you (trips, KJ), and in terms of combinatorics, I think the latter would justify raising here being a -EV play, unless you could possibly get him to call with AJ (only 9 combinations).

Foucault

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April 18, 2016 - 10:20 pm
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I still don’t understand what you mean by “afford to fold”. The chips you lose by folding are worth less to you, that’s true, but still why would you want to give away chips?

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