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Check-shoving turn in a small weekly live tournament
cfarmerga
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July 13, 2015 - 10:47 pm
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I had this hand in a small live tournament this weekend. It was about a $50 average buy-in after the rebuy and add on and “dealer appreciation” bonus chips and there were about 22 players to start. The blinds were in 15-min levels, so it went up pretty quick and the stacks were short by the time this hand happened.  I was in the big blind with about 75k and was probably third in chips, being outchipped by a couple blinds by two.  There were 8 players remaining with about 3 players with less than 3 blinds. Top 5 finishers paid.  I don't remember the whole structure, but first was $675 and the 4th and 5th were about $100 and $75 respectively.  I didn't really care about the money for less than first place, so wasn't really interested in strategizing to just make it to the final 5.

 

Blinds were 4000/8000 with a 800 ante.

I was in big blind and dealt As8s.  It was folded around to the cutoff who called. Everyone else folded.  I checked.  Villain was to my left at our previous table and I had seen him flat calling several of flops with pocket pairs, including jacks and tens, but he seemed to be happy to fold modest pairs and draws to a bet. I think I thought that if I raised here he would call, but that he might fold easily later.

Flop is 2h 6s 9s. I checked here.  I did it sort of reflexively, though I am pretty sure villain folds any non-pair here, or if he calls it's often for the same flush I'm chasing. So, in retrospect, I think I should have bet here about 15k. He checks back.

Turn is Kh. I check again. He bets the minimum 8k. I had not seen him try to lead with nothing before, so I suspected he had something. I think he'd have raised AK or KK, so I think he likely has a K with a modest kicker or maybe T9s or 98s.  I thought about folding but I decided to shove.  I think I ultimately misjudged the facts at the time, but here's my thought process which I'd like critiqued.

 

1. He almost never has a monster hand here. 99 and 66 are definitely possible monsters, but 22 and KK are unlikely. I also think he would have raised with QQ and JJ, but maybe not with lesser pocket pairs.

2. He's previously folded middle pairs to aggression and shown them, so I suspect he would at least strongly consider folding JJ-TT, 88-77.

3. I have flush and ace outs. (After later thinking about this and pokerstoving it, I see that my equity against my estimates of his range was quite lower than I'd guessed it was, so there's that learning opportunity too. At the time I thought I might have about 40% equity, but it's closer to 28, and most of villain's equity comes from the K which is totally what he's representing. I probably should have taken the hint.)

4. I thought his min bet indicated a little weakness and that he might really not want to risk nearly all his stack on calling with a marginal hand. 

 

So, I shoved.  He tanked a long time before talking himself into a call.  He showed KdTd. Now that I think about it, he can probably see that I have worse than a pair of kings, since I'd surely have bet out on the turn for value against a relatively passive villain. Because of this, I think he could have realized that I maybe have a few monster hands but the vast majority is worse than his holding.

River was 2c, so I didn't hit. Villain had me slightly covered so I was out.

So what are the key places to improve here?  I think they are:

1. I should have raised pre-flop with a suited A8 against a single late position caller. I probably would have folded to a reraise.

2. I should have bet the flop since it was not a bad flop for me and was unlikely to hit his calling range.

3. I could have check-called the turn, since I had 3 ace outs to what would likely be best and all the spade outs to the nuts.

4. I could have check-folded the brick river and still had an above average stack.

 

So, really how bad was my shove here? What factors would have to change to make it a good play? If I'd gotten a small pair on the flop in addition to the spade draw I see my equity goes up to about 42%, so would that make it better? Or would that just reinforce the check-call line a little more?

 

thanks!

joelshitshow
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July 13, 2015 - 11:35 pm
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If you have 9 bigs in the BB, I think your choice is to either shove or check. I understand that everyone's short, but all that will do is make people tighten up. They will only notice they are short, not that everyone else is. And if they do, they may think they can ladder up.

 

If I checked preflop, I would check call the flop and turn and check fold the river. I could make a case for shoving the flop, but it seems like a high variance play if you can expect to outplay them in a short-stack game. Waiting till the turn is too late because now there is only 1 card to come with your 12 outs.

cfarmerga
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July 14, 2015 - 12:37 am
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Thanks for the comments.

 

I may be slightly wrong about the chip counts.  It was probably more than 10 bigs in the effective stacks to start the hand but almost certainly less than 15. The blinds had just jumped from 2000/4000 to 4000/8000 and I may not have recalibrated my thinking to recognize that I was really so short.

 

I'm not sure that it's totally a check or shove decision though, since calling the turn would cost me 8000 and the pot would then be 6400 in antes + 4000 small blind + 8000 big blind + 8000 limper + 8000 turn bet = 34400. So I'm getting 4.3-to-1 on the call and have slightly better than that in equity if I have 12 clean outs, and I will have an easy check-fold or bet decision on the river. I think the upside is not bad for calling the turn once I've gotten myself into that situation.

 

It sounds like you're suggesting that a pre-flop shove over the limper would have been the best play, and I think I agree with that.

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