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January 5, 2015
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This was a multi-day flighted LIVE tourney. There 3000 buyins (mostly re-buys, as there were about 700 total people) and the TOP 80 got paid. There are 96 left.
It is 4000-8000-1000. And I have 17bb in MP with 88.
The table: the guy to my immediate left was the tournament chip leader with close 800,000 chips. He was calling about 80% of my raises and 3 betting a decent percentage as well. He was also aggressive post flop – basically, a very active player capable of putting me in very tough spots.
The 3 guys after him were all nits with stacks of about 250k.
The SB was a young kid who I had covered nut only by a small bit (he had like 16bb). He just was moved about 20 mins ago and have not seen him a play any significant hands yet…not very active.
So…the blinds go up to 4000-8000-1000 and I am thinking I need to make a move and build up some chips going into the ITM stretch. I really did not want to play “raise games” with the guy to my left. I had intended on getting a hand and getting it in.
So I get 88 and shove… is this decision (and reasoning) good? mediocre? bad? real bad?
The BB was an Asian man who had about 300k and was also slightly nitty
January 16, 2015
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I’m shoving 88 from mp with 17bbs pretty much every time regardless of my opponents, but your aggressive opponent only makes shoving here mandatory instead of preferable.
September 14, 2014
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Yeah, shoving is good, nothing wrong with it , i think you're being resullt oriantated.
The other option could be to r/c unless you have an exploitable read that villian is a super nit and will only shove with 99+ AQs+ then you could r/f.
If u had AA/KK/QQ in this spot would u just jam 17bb , or just raise?
March 14, 2015
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i hate a shove here. We dont ever let our opponenents bluff us. . .
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December 6, 2012
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PokerGoals said:
i hate a shove here. We dont ever let our opponenents bluff us. . .
bluff you how?
March 14, 2015
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we shud have a min raise fold hands with 18bb's so people can shove worse pp's and ace 2-8 which we dominate. If we shove their folding 22-55 prolly.
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December 6, 2012
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PokerGoals said:
we shud have a min raise fold hands with 18bb's so people can shove worse pp's and ace 2-8 which we dominate. If we shove their folding 22-55 prolly.
True facts but raising may also induce shoves from hands like A9 and KT from which we'd prefer folds.
July 10, 2013
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But isn’t inducing a few shoves from A9 & KT a small price to pay if at the same time we induce some shoves from lower pairs?
Having said that, given that we’re talking about a *live* tournament, I suppose there’s some risk of inducing 3-bets or flats from 99 & TT by LiveNits who might actually fold those hands to a 17BB shove.
I’m not disputing that shoving is profitable or even remotely confident that opening is better – it feels tricky to evaluate the EV of playing 88 out of position vs a villain who will flat or 3-bet with 80% of hands (and likely bring along at least one more player making a pot odds call).
What about bigger pairs in the same spot – with QQ+ vs villain as described I would be very tempted to just open & hope to get chips in good postflop.
January 16, 2015
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folding_aces_pre_yo said:
If u had AA/KK/QQ in this spot would u just jam 17bb , or just raise?
Yeah, that's kind of the problem with having an open-shoving range that extends into the 20bb range, it can be very difficult to get value for big hands.
We aren't playing under ideal circumstances though with the active opponent to our immediate left continuously making us play multi-way pots out of position.
Our actions are largely going to be dictated by the cards we get, but we really need to be focused on constructing a custom range for playing against our troublesome opponent.
One option is to just open-jam the top 11 or so percent of hands to try to keep pace with blind attrition, but I think it would be better in this spot to open up a fold to 3-bet range that extends down to 10 or so bbs.
I think the only hands that we're really bummed about open-shoving here are AA, KK and maybe QQ or AK, so we're looking at wanting to raise about 1% of hands and correspondingly, our fold to 3-bet range should be approximately equivalent.
If we're planning on playing the top 10% of hands that means we're only going to be raise/folding about 10% of the hands we play. (Those numbers are kind of arbitrary, but whatever our preflop range we're only going to be folding a small percentage of the time). That should allow us to feel more comfortable about the prospect of raise/folding preflop while under 20bbs.
A couple other observations:
I think with our stack size and active opponent, open-limping isn't an option. Not that I'm a proponent of open-limping, but any strong hand we want to represent would be betting for value preflop.
While we will call a 3-bet shove with our premiums and fold our poop, we never have a standard flat to 3-bet range here as we're pot committed to any 3-bet.
The biggest mistake I think we face in this circumstance is to tighten up too much, playing too few hands to compensate for blind attrition and allowing our opponents to easily get out of the way when we have a big hand.
April 2, 2014
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Strategically I am not sure,
If we choose to shove then we lift our stack from 17BB to something like 20BB when they fold,
When they call our stack is going to be either around 36BB or we are out.
So most of the time we are going to gain 3BB (approx) and a few times we will double, and a few times we will bust.
The advantage of raising rather than shoving of course comes mainly from when we are going up against two hands. We min raise, someone shoves, someone over shoves and we save a bundle. The cost for this insurance (for want of a better word) is that when a single person shoves it becomes profitable to call (mostly) and so we find ourselves in coin flips more often.
The more I think about the more a raise call seems better. We get to dodge really tricky shove-overshove/call situations where we are unlikely to fair well against multiple opponents – like magic we actually get an ability to sometimes dodge monsters, we still get to pick up the blinds sometimes- yay, and an increase in coin flips – we still have about 17% of the field to be knocked out and the chances of our 17BB lasting us till then is not that great so our equity is not that good, especially with our crap position.
Just my thoughts, I might be barking up the wrong tree with my thought pattern, but that is how it plays out in my mind.
September 14, 2014
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@Ape , Nice post.
I still think its important to have a r/f range though , it's just seems quite difficult to construct one….I mean if i have 18bb , it would depend on the table I'm on and any spefic reads i have on my opponets. for instance i'f your on a very loose table , i think open shoving is perfectly fine with those pocket pairs because if we r/c with those hands they won't play well vs a wider range anyway , so it's better to get fold from those hands, at least then we have more fold equity.
Now if we had a strong hand on a loose table, i still think open shoving ain't terrible, though we do lose value , there will be times were we will get called (as looser players have wider calling ranges). I also think its important to balance , so basically we should have a open shoving range for15-20bb with the top/medium and bottom of our range.
Would be very un-balanced, to shove with our weaker hands and r/c with our strong hands for sure and thats where the r/f range comes into play and we can do this by r/f the bottom of our range and shove the midde and top of our range.
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