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January 10, 2017
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So last night I am playing a $200 live tourney at our local casino. I have 184k with blinds at 3k/5k (bb ante format). Utg +2 limps, cutoff and button limp, I check the bb with 72o. Flop is 773 rainbow. I check, Utg 2 checks, HJ bets 7500, button calls, I call. Gets back to utg 2 and he ships 175k. There are 17 left and 14 get paid. This is such a random line and doesn’t make much sense. He is a very active, but bad player. I tanked for quite a while and honestly just could not figure out what he would do this with. He is bad enough to jam a hand like 99 here, but he is also bad enough to ship trip 7s and pocket 3s. We were both average stacks at the time. I eventually folded. The guys at the table were stunned when I folded face up and said I was crazy to do so. I went on to finish 2nd so ultimately it worked out, but trying to figure out if, given the circumstances, folding was a mistake.
July 24, 2018
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I like your fold. Don’t show your cards. Really, Don’t show your cards.
You think the guy might be shipping with 99? Seems unlikely, and he is allowed to hold 7x.
Very active players don’t open limp 99 there, unless he is super passive. I’d think he’d more likely have a hand like AA than 99, that he got trappy with. Still, there are far more combos of 7x, and 33 than strange value hands that you beat.
February 5, 2015
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I don’t know man…I just think he is so much more likely to have a very good overpair here. Or even just an overpair, maybe even KA if he is that bad, though unlikely.
3for3 said
“Very active players don’t open limp 99 there, unless he is super passive. I’d think he’d more likely have a hand like AA than 99, that he got trappy with. Still, there are far more combos of 7x, and 33 than strange value hands that you beat.”
I see active players limp pocket pairs all the time, though I play mainly low stakes, so when we get a bad player, they usually are bottom of the barrel. Disagree that overpairs are “strange value hands that you beat”. Again this is a line I see regularly.
and
“Don’t show your cards. Really, Don’t show your cards.”
Can’t stress this enough. Poker is a game of incomplete information. The more information you give your enemy, the greater their edge over you becomes. Why did you feel the need to show your hand? I’m not knocking you, I used to be a prolific hand-shower. When I think back to the reason why I showed out, it was always some kind of vanity: ie ‘look at how clever and competent I am to be able to lay down such a strong hand here’. Not only was it vain, but it gives out some very damaging information which competent players will pick up on no question: that on the bubble you can be forced to lay down a very strong hand by a strong bet.
I think folding was almost certainly a mistake here, I would have called, but wouldn’t have been super surprised to be beat out.
January 10, 2017
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This was the only hand I showed that night. My main reason was hoping that he would show. For whatever reason players to tend show their hands with both big bluffs and monsters when the other player makes a big lay down. This is especially true when the guy shows the hand he is laying down.
February 5, 2015
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Hey TW, well maybe there’s a difference there between online and live poker. I have never played a single hand of live poker in my life, and if I did have a go I would imagine I might get dressed up not only in sunglasses to hide my tells, but like a full blown IRA terrorist with balaclava, and in a straight jacket. I wouldn’t have a dismal first clue about how to hide my tells.
I guess if you are trying to elicit some info from the other guy there might be a merit in showing one’s hand first.
Also, I was thinking about this down the gym this morning, that perhaps one could devise some kind of exploitive strategy around showing hands, like showing one time in a spot where you are only playing the hand that way in order to be able to show your opponents your play, when in fact you would never play the hand that way usually…a ‘bluff-show’. But then I got a little carried away, and tried imagining if there might be some GTO hand-showing counter strategy from the opponent, like showing one ‘bluff-show’, and two ‘authentic play-shows’, in the interest of balance. 
November 28, 2015
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I like your fold here. A lot of the times we see bad players spaz out when they have a nutty-ish hand and jam on these boards. I don’t think Aces are shoving flop here in a multi-way limped pot. I think 33s are a huge part of his utg2 limo range. I had an issue ditching those cruddy pocket pairs in early position when I first started playing live. I went from opening them, to limping them. To straight up folding them( depending on the strength of my table of course). Good fold IMO. Also, I show my hand sometimes as well, because like you said, a lot of the time people will show what they had. Literally the only reason I show.
July 24, 2018
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Played around a little with an equity calculator. If his range is all 7xs plus A7,K7,33, you have about 25%, since we do get a fair amount of chops, and some 2s, still an easy fold. If he has just 2 over pairs, your equity shoots up to 50%, which is a good chip ev call, but not so great on the bubble.
So, basically, Villain needs to be value shoving all combos of 3 overpairs, or other hands that you beat to make this a call.
February 5, 2015
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Hmm…combinatorics. I did study it, spent a lot of time on it in fact. I bought a book I loved on it called Practical Poker Math by Pat Dittmar (?), which got panned by the critics but I enjoyed. I should read it again.
I also need to do more work with equity calculators.
If you say it is a fold then I believe you Danny.
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December 6, 2012
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I have a meta-concern about showing your hand here. It’s not just about what you might be revealing about yourself, it’s about where your head is. You say that you showed in hopes that your opponent would show. But so what if he does, what does that do for you? I assume if he shows a hand you’re ahead of it will upset you, and if he shows a better hand you’ll feel validated. But I would argue neither reaction is justified! You’re playing against a range, which hand he happens to have this time isn’t going to prove your play right or wrong. The central problem is looking for external validation of your decisions. It’s a frustrating reality of poker that you will often not know the right play for sure, even after the fact. The goal IMO should be to reach a point where you make your decisions and don’t worry about the results, including what your opponent had (which is just another form of results-orientedness).
November 28, 2015
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Foucault said
I have a meta-concern about showing your hand here. It’s not just about what you might be revealing about yourself, it’s about where your head is. You say that you showed in hopes that your opponent would show. But so what if he does, what does that do for you? I assume if he shows a hand you’re ahead of it will upset you, and if he shows a better hand you’ll feel validated. But I would argue neither reaction is justified! You’re playing against a range, which hand he happens to have this time isn’t going to prove your play right or wrong. The central problem is looking for external validation of your decisions. It’s a frustrating reality of poker that you will often not know the right play for sure, even after the fact. The goal IMO should be to reach a point where you make your decisions and don’t worry about the results, including what your opponent had (which is just another form of results-orientedness).
I’m not arguing with any of the points your making, because I do see your points. However, IMO regardless if villain was ahead or not, if he does show, that does reveal a lot of info about the types of hands he will open limp from early position. Which, from an exploitative point of view, can be huge for future encounters.
July 24, 2018
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The Riceman said
Hmm…combinatorics. I did study it, spent a lot of time on it in fact. I bought a book I loved on it called Practical Poker Math by Pat Dittmar (?), which got panned by the critics but I enjoyed. I should read it again.I also need to do more work with equity calculators.
If you say it is a fold then I believe you Danny.
It’s not whether I am right or wrong, it’s more putting an opponent on a range and doing the math. One trick I like to do, when playing around with equity calculators, is to solve for what range is break even, then ask myself if Villains range is stronger or weaker. This is probably backwards, you should be trying to assess their range first, then check ev.
Either way, the result is clearly Villain dependent. If your read is 7x/33 heavy you fold, if overpairs are a decent part of his range, you have to call.
January 10, 2017
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I don’t disagree Andrew. I wish I was always wise enough to simply not worry what the actual results and whether or not I made the correct call in a specific situation. I always cringe when I hear players talking at the table and being solely results oriented. Much of my curiousity about his holding was essentially the same thing. However, some of it was also my attempt to try and get a read on what types of holdings he would take this line with. At the end of the day I did give away quite a bit of information when I showed so I should have just mucked my hand once I made the decision to fold.
November 28, 2015
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Hey TightlyWound, when you say “he is a very active player” can you describe a little more what you mean by this? Was he aggressive-active, passive-active? When at showdown, what type of hands did you see him show up with? Also, how many players were at your table? 8 or 9? Also, can you describe what he looked like from an age perspective? 20’s, 30’s, 40’s?
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