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C-bet sizing in 2015
PlasticPearl
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May 4, 2015 - 4:01 am
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What are more people c-betting these days? I've usually stuck to around 45% pot in heads up pots and 67% in multi-way pots, but in the past couple days I've been experimenting with 35%. The advantages I've found is villains are more likely to call me light when I have big hands as it doesn't look so strong. I also think it means my big hands are more likely to be paid off because it is harder to tell when I have a hand, as I can afford to c-bet more flops. It also allows me to extract myself from tricky spots for a cheaper price. The disadvantage I've found so far is that perhaps my monsters aren't getting as much money in the pot as with the larger sizing. But then I think I'm more likely to get 3 streets with the smaller sizing, compared to maybe 2 streets with the larger sizing.

 

So I'm rambling a bit. What are other people doing? And any tips for good videos on this?

SonicNY
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May 4, 2015 - 7:03 am
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I have been c-betting somewhere between 1/3 and 1/2 pot depending on how large the blind is. If I were to actually see a history of my cbets I’d say it’s like 40%. Has been working well for me. I tend to get enough people to fold when I want them too while at the same time getting a decent number of calls when I want them too. Can’t have it both ways every time but I think the mix has been positive for me.

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Deadkingg13
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May 4, 2015 - 2:46 pm
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I think it depends on the board a little bit along with opponents ability to float. If they are a calling station and tend to float a lot of flops then maybe c bet a little heavier. If it’s a draw heavy board that could possibly hit them I think you have to be a little more carefully. Especially if the draws seem to be likely in their range. If this is the case you’ll have to evaluate how likely it is that your opponent has a draw and if so what the outs are. If it makes it tothe river you may have to re evaluate and even with a monster find the fold button. even more if you don’t believe they are capable of a bluff. This is important in the earlier stages of a tournament in my opinion especially in the lower stakes when you find yourself in a lot of multi way pots. Idk if that helps but tends to work for me.

theginger45

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May 4, 2015 - 7:06 pm
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Recently I've been following the logic explained by our own Andrew Brokos in some of his video series on TPE and experimenting with altering my betsizing purely according to how many bluffs are in my range (and therefore choosing a singular betsizing with my whole range), and I've been seeing very good results.

This often results in bigger betsizings on dry boards, which seems somewhat counter-intuitive, but it's working out quite well so far. It's also having the added bonus of forcing me to consider in every spot what my own perceived range is in the eyes of my opponents, which is improving my overall postflop play.

I'll go anywhere between 35% and 80% depending on the spot. This variation is extended on future streets to include the occasional overbet of 120% or so. I think the next step in this strategy for me is to begin using more exploitative and varied betsizes to exploit weaker players who aren't able to consider my entire range in the same way a good player would.

SonicNY
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May 4, 2015 - 7:54 pm
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I like the way that sounds. Is there a Brokos series in particular you are studying to learn more about that, ginger?

ltcolumbo
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May 5, 2015 - 12:11 pm
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theginger45 said:

Recently I've been following the logic explained by our own Andrew Brokos in some of his video series on TPE and experimenting with altering my betsizing purely according to how many bluffs are in my range (and therefore choosing a singular betsizing with my whole range), and I've been seeing very good results.

This often results in bigger betsizings on dry boards, which seems somewhat counter-intuitive, but it's working out quite well so far. It's also having the added bonus of forcing me to consider in every spot what my own perceived range is in the eyes of my opponents, which is improving my overall postflop play.

I'll go anywhere between 35% and 80% depending on the spot. This variation is extended on future streets to include the occasional overbet of 120% or so. I think the next step in this strategy for me is to begin using more exploitative and varied betsizes to exploit weaker players who aren't able to consider my entire range in the same way a good player would.

would like to hear more on this in grave detail!!!

Foucault

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May 5, 2015 - 5:38 pm
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Very interesting discussion. I think the most important thing to recognize is that there isn't a single correct % for all situations. Even if you aren't varying your size based on the strength of your hand, which I think you generally should not, there are a number of factors that should affect your size:

Effective stacks – with shallower stacks, the concern you note about not building a pot with your nut hands is less of a concern. Consequently, there is less of a cost to using a small size with your whole range.

Shape of your range – what ginger says about betting bigger with a more bluff-heavy range is most applicable in polarized range vs bluff-catcher situations, which occur most frequently on the river but can happen on earlier streets as well, especially on static boards where you have a clear range advantage (222 or AA2 flop when you are UTG raiser, for instance). This is really only applicable with quite deep stacks, though, because in most tournament situations with shallow stacks you don't gain from overbetting nut hands, which won't have trouble getting all in anyway.

Board texture – static boards usually call for smaller sizing, because there are fewer protection considerations and position matters less.

Position – all other things equal, you should probably use slightly larger sizing (and bet less often) from OOP. This is because your opponent needs better odds to call with the same hands when you have position than when you don't.

Some other factors mentioned here, like number of opponents, have (I think) a bigger effect on whether you should bet a given hand than on how much you should bet when you bet.

PlasticPearl
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May 6, 2015 - 12:40 pm
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Pretty awesome discussion so far, thanks guys. Given me a lot to think about. I think c-betting in general has developed so much as a concept that it is becoming harder to tell what c-bets from other players mean too. Different people think about the concept so differently (this thread is a great example), so you really have to pay attention to players tendencies and patterns to even begin to understand what their c-bets mean.

Foucault

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May 7, 2015 - 12:55 am
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C bets usually don’t “mean” much of anything, as many players will do it with the majority of their ranges. The more valuable thing to consider, then, is what it means when someone does NOT c bet, as this is usually the much more defined and exploitable range.

tazzjazz
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May 8, 2015 - 11:46 pm
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funny, i haven't even realized how arbitrary my cbet bet sizing was until i checked out this thread lol. seriously, i have found the small cbet (35-40%) followed by the big double barrel (65-70%), regardless of hand strength, has been very effective lately

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