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c-bet sizing
Kilavolts
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June 25, 2014 - 8:11 pm
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i am just trying to nail some specific concepts down and was curious just on my c-bet sizing alone. thoughts? too much, no where close? thanks in advance

Merge - $0+$0|<> NL - Holdem - 9 players
Hand converted by PokerTracker 4

UTG+1: 7,104 (VPIP: 100.00, PFR: 0.00, 3Bet Preflop: 0.00, Hands: 1)
MP: 3,310 (VPIP: 26.04, PFR: 14.14, 3Bet Preflop: 4.44, Hands: 192)
MP+1: 5,446 (VPIP: 15.43, PFR: 15.38, 3Bet Preflop: 12.00, Hands: 162)
MP+2: 4,055 (VPIP: 26.00, PFR: 14.29, 3Bet Preflop: 4.55, Hands: 51)
CO: 5,185 (VPIP: 0.00, PFR: 0.00, 3Bet Preflop: 0.00, Hands: 1)
Hero (BTN): 4,940
SB: 4,890 (VPIP: 0.00, PFR: 0.00, 3Bet Preflop: 0.00, Hands: 1)
BB: 4,770 (VPIP: 0.00, PFR: 0.00, 3Bet Preflop: -, Hands: 1)
UTG: 2,426 (VPIP: 0.00, PFR: 0.00, 3Bet Preflop: -, Hands: 1)

9 players post ante of 10, SB posts SB 50, BB posts BB 100

Pre Flop: (pot: 240) Hero has  9heart 7heart 

fold, fold, fold, fold, fold, fold, [color=red]Hero raises to 225[/color], SB calls 175, BB calls 125

Flop: (765, 3 players)  Aheart 6heart 3club 
SB checks, BB checks, [color=red]Hero bets 377[/color], fold, fold

[spoil]Hero wins 765
[/spoil]
SIGABA
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June 25, 2014 - 10:36 pm
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I like your pfr size.  I usually do the same, 2x to 2.5x.  Then your cbet seems a little big to me.  I usually do about 1/3 pot – 2/5 pot.  If this is a standard example for you, you did just a shave under 1/2 pot.  In this example I would usually bet 255 – 311.  Something like that.  On this board, I would bet 255 with the ace out there.  With the ck ck after the flop, I think they have just given up.  A small bet should take it down no problem

markconkle
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June 26, 2014 - 12:44 am
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I have to say I don't think either of you is looking at this the right way.  Your cbet sizing cannot be evaluated based on one hand, and to say you “usually” do 1/3 to 2/5 pot is not very helpful.

 

Here are some factors to consider how big to bet on each INDIVIDUAL hand and situation:

 

Stack sizes – what percent of the pot could you bet to get allin by the river using the same percentage against one caller?  This is often a good size to use with a range of hands that includes the nuts of bluffs.

Value/bluff targets – What types of hands do you want your opponent to call you with?  What types of hands do you want him to fold?

# of players in pot – Do you have a hand that can reasonably win if multiple players call?  Against one opponent?

Position, Reads on other players, ICM considerations, game flow, etc.

 

As to this particular hand, in position against 2 other players, all three players with relatively weak ranges (button vs. blinds), but villains with capped ranges and hero uncapped, and a solid drawing hand, you would love to be called by low pairs, pure floats, and weaker draws. (You can do very well continuing to barrel against these types of hands)  You would prefer villains to fold better flush draws, and pairs 77 or higher.  In this situation, I think the hands you prefer to be called by are probably very price-sensitive, and will fold to larger bets.  I don't think you will make 77 or better fold with a reasonably sized bet, and better flush draws are simply not very common, so less important to consider.  

 

For these reasons, I like a small flop bet, planning to barrel any turn and some rivers.  Your villains just have wide, weak, ranges, and are sure to fold a lot.  In this case, I would bet around 220 to try to keep in hands like KQ, 67, and 45, increasing the size of the pot for you to win later by bluffing or hitting your flush.

SIGABA
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June 26, 2014 - 2:11 am
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Yeah maybe you're right.  After reading your response I realized I was responding to this specific example more than I was to the general question about c bets.  For example, I played a hand in a live mtt today where I cbet more than the pot because I knew that my opponent would call if he hit ANYTHING (and I wanted him to call).  If he hit bottom pair or a draw he was going to call a small bet or a big one.  I had a set and wanted him to stick around, so I overbet the pot because he was a calling station.  He was calling if he connected, and the sizing didn't matter.

 

I like your answer better.

Kilavolts
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June 26, 2014 - 7:46 am
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Thank you both very much. Couldn’t have hoped for a better answer.

nonsimplesimon
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June 26, 2014 - 5:03 pm
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I'd min raise pre – and cb/gii otf – betting about 38%-43% – or just under half pot – which is like my standard here.

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