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BvB spot 26bb effective in Midweek Monster
Nokaman
Newington, CT
Lighting Money On Fire
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June 20, 2012 - 11:35 pm
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Nokaman starts the hand with 17492
Axiomat1c with 15757

Nokaman Posts Ante 60.00
Axiomat1c Posts Ante 60.00
rizniles Posts Ante 60.00
OaklandTony Posts Ante 60.00
Born1nUSSR Posts Ante 60.00
snAAdragon Posts Ante 60.00
ebowman22 Posts Ante 60.00
Nokaman Posts SB 300.00
Axiomat1c Posts BB 600.00
Nokaman (Kh,Td)
rizniles Folds
OaklandTony Folds
Born1nUSSR Folds
snAAdragon Folds
ebowman22 Folds
Nokaman Raised to 1235.00
Axiomat1c Calls 635.00
FLOP - (Ts 7d 3c)
Nokaman Bets 1310.00
Axiomat1c Calls 1310.00
TURN -  Ts 7d 3c (6h)
Nokaman Checks
Axiomat1c Bets 2225.00
Nokaman Calls 2225.00
RIVER - Ts 7d 3c 6h (9s)
Nokaman Checks
Axiomat1c All In 10927.00
Nokaman ??????
I'll explain my line/thought process after some feedback.  As played, pretty sure I made the right move.
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FloppedBackdoorTrips
Wooster, OH
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June 21, 2012 - 1:55 am
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I feel like there's a lot of debate about the subject, but I personally hate the minraise from the SB play.  I want stack sizes to be more like the 17-18BB range before I'm minraising.  26BBs isn't a great stack to be splashing around with, but considering he's getting better than 3:1, and a call is only 4% of his stack, he can be defending really wide here.  Plus, with a hand like KTo, a bigger raise gives us a much better SPR for single pair hands, which is basically what we're looking to flop.  (As played, SPR is like 5…I usually shoot for about 3.5).

 

Anyway, I think the raise sizing preflop ultimately cost you this pot.

 

But as far as postflop play, looks fine w/o any reads on villain.  I would probably just bet turn as well, since I'm still getting value from worse Tx hands, some sticky 7x, etc.  The only hands that improved were 76, 89, and 45…and that's a very small part of his range.

 

River probably sigh-fold…I don't think he's doing this super wide, but again villain dependent.

Nokaman
Newington, CT
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June 22, 2012 - 8:57 am
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Normally I would double barrel this board for value, but in this spot I check to induce bluffs/pot control (more to induce bluffs).  I just don't think there are enough hands in his range that we beat that will call 2 barrels here, nevermind 3 (maybe this is flawed).  If I think I'm only getting 2 streets from most of his range that we beat, shouldn't this be a check all day?

If we think he is defending wide preflop, I actually like a check best to let him bluff turns with his floats (which could be a lot in this spot) and get river value from those SPHs that we're already ahead of.

I really like your point about the minraise BvB. Definitely going to start to make it bigger (2.5x seems like plenty, no?)

Anyway, I tanked for basically ever and actually leveled myself into a call.  Felt like those floats/SPH's could have been turned into bluffs.  Also felt like this particular villain wouldn't be shoving his 2pairs for value on this river, so it was a super polarizing play with an 8 or nothing. After checking the turn, I felt as though my hand looks like it has some showdown value and the river is the perfect barrel card to get me off exactly what my hand looks like.

Kind of a hero call, but I don't hate it.

He showed up with the j8o

OkieNGa
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June 22, 2012 - 1:45 pm
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When BvB pre and I choose to raise, I have found that it is best to raise somewhere between 2.5 and 2.8. 

 

That said, I have also found that I get more credit with my position raises if I give the BB a walk in these spots.  This does not necessarily mean with K10, but with the more questionable holdings, opponent dependant obv. 

pokerkids
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June 22, 2012 - 3:19 pm
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I think we need to be raising the sb a large percentage of the time when we are getting deeper into a tournament, because picking up those extra chips is so crucial. Basically raising with any two is profitable, at least in the lower/midstakes because people just fold to often and don't 3 bet enough. There are some oppenents we should be more selective about what we raise, but that's only if they are going to flat most of the time, or if they are a better player than us. If they have a skill edge then we will be losing money playing postflop against them oop. I think we should raise a bit more than a minraise, but it doesn't have to be much more, just enough to discourage calls a little bit more. Something like 2.2x is plenty. I think more than 2.5x this shallow would be a mistake unless we are doing it for value against an uber fish.

 

As played, I think I would be double barreling this board most of the time. I agree that sometimes we need to be checking our value hands for balance, but I'm more likely to check like 810, 910, j10, 88-99 or the weaker end of my value range. With a hand like k10 though we can comfortably barrel 3 streets against most opponents. People will call us down with weak top pairs or even middle pair bvb because they just wont give us enough respect as opposed to if we had raised from a different position. We also dont want him to be able to check behind a hand like 910, 810, 78, 79, 68, etc. He would most likely call a bet with all those hands, and we are letting him see another card that might give him the best hand, or kill our action. If he checks behind and another overcard falls he may not be calling another bet with a seven/six, but would have paid us off on the turn.

OkieNGa
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June 22, 2012 - 3:42 pm
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I disagree with the 2.2, people just simply defend way too often with hands that should not be involved, larger bet = more folds.  At the stakes we are talking here, people are not, as you said, 3betting enough and are just looking to preserve their stacks.  That said, a 1.2 bb call is not enough for them to fold when they will have position on you for the rest of the hand.

 

I also have noticed through experimentation that tightening up my folding range when in the SB gives me credit later when I am raising 2 or 3 hands in a row from the Btn, CO, HiJ spots.  Game flow….and from these spots I can raise the 2.1-2.3 bb and get people to fold far more often.  I just feel taking every possible edge is -EV, so to always raise almost any two from the SB when folded to is just bad imo.  Of course, that is unless you are playing against someone who is as tight as a drum…….and never calls unless he has a top 10 hand.

pokerkids
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June 22, 2012 - 4:13 pm
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Don't get me wrong, I don't raise every single time from the small blind, but its a super profitable spot to pick up chips. We only have to get through one opponent. In this hand there is 1440chips in the pot preflop. If we raise to 1350 (2.25x) then we are only risking  1050 chips to win 1440. So the bb only has to fold 42% of the time to be profitable. Even a super loose player has a hard time defending with 58% of his range. That's if we were raising with garbage everytime, but of course we will have stronger hands some of the time as well that we want to get action with.

One of the other times where I tighten up my sb opening range is if there is a big stack in the bb who isn't a nit, because they are likely to flat even a wider range, and float our cbets on a lot of flops putting us in difficult positions on the turn. however, in the situation above where we have the villain covered, and he only has 25bb, I'm probably going to open like 80% of hands.

Gameflow is important, and there are times when I decide to give a walk, or pass up a good 3 bet spot because I have been really active the past orbit or two, but I have a hard time giving most opponents (unless I know them to be good players) credit for paying attention to gameflow and exactly how active I am. Even if they are annoyed about it, they probably arent going to fight back a lot with complete air preflop.

FkCoolers
Cambridge, Ma (Central Square)
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June 22, 2012 - 7:44 pm
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1399 pre.

Barrel 2 streets and either chk/call or chk/fold river here maybe. 

bennymacca
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June 22, 2012 - 10:42 pm
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tbh i dont hate the minraise in the sb. i think its fine most of the time, and it depends on whether villain is more likely to defend rather than jam. 

 

given we are 26bb deep here, villain has a great rejam stack so i think it is actually bad to raise more than min (or say 2.2) becasue you are just giving villain more of an incentive to jam it on you. 

 

if villain is defending really wide, then i think you should actually just fold more but widen your value range. the difference between 2x and 2.5x isnt going to make a villain that likes to defend do it less often in my experience. 

ttwist

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June 23, 2012 - 11:40 pm
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i tend to give the min raiser sb to bb more respect for being a competant post flop player as there always looking for action rather than betting it away.

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