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May 30, 2012
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i haven't played any poker for about 6 months so to say i'm a little rusty is an understatement but here's a hand that i just got lost with.
Merge – $1+$0.10|<> NL – Holdem – 8 players
Hand converted by PokerTracker 3
kapitaaal (MP): 6,220.00
shelia0110 (MP+1): 4,162.00
Tgetem (CO): 5,000.00
okidokie (BTN): 17,095.00
mainestreet (SB): 17,333.00
xristopher (BB): 6,905.00
1Troy1 (UTG): 3,315.00
Tonchina (UTG+1): 5,380.00
kapitaaal posts ante 15.00, shelia0110 posts ante 15.00, Tgetem posts ante 15.00, okidokie posts ante 15.00, mainestreet posts ante 15.00, xristopher posts ante 15.00, 1Troy1 posts ante 15.00, Tonchina posts ante 15.00, mainestreet posts SB 80.00, xristopher posts BB 160.00
Pre Flop: (360.00) okidokie has 8
Q
fold, fold, fold, fold, fold, okidokie raises to 350.00, mainestreet calls 270.00, xristopher calls 190.00
Flop: (1170.00, 3 players) 5 8
7
mainestreet checks, xristopher checks, okidokie bets 585.00, fold, xristopher raises to 6,540.00 and is all-in,hero????????
reads are as follows:
bb is playing 42/38 from 29 hands so i know he's aggro and as its a $1 tourney can we assume he's bad? sb is playing 40/18 from 49 hands, so pretty awful and i'm playing 20/18 from 58 hands so my image is reasonably tight compared to alot of the fish playing, if a little aggro.
i think that my open when it gets round to me is fine. i may have raised too small considering it's just a $1, but i've been raising 2.5x for every raise so far. i did later on change down to 2x once my stack to blinds ratio became closer.
once both blinds called i feel that i can quite easily have the best hand in this situation, but the 2 blinds could have any combination.
i tried putting a range together before i decided what to do. the bb line seems like it's made up of sets, 2 pair, spade draws, straight draws, over cards etc. the check raise just seemed really strong to me. am i right in my reasoning here or is it still as wide as it was preflop with him playing 42% of starting hands?
i basically put his range squarely on low to mid pocket pairs, and connectors both suited and unsuited as well as most aces and most kings. is this a fair range to put him on pre flop from the blinds? i figured if he had 99+ or large broadway cards then he's raising me pre. am i wrong in thinking this?
on the flop, i'm c-betting this flop most if not all the time. i'm thinking that this is a mistake due to it being a really wet board with the straight draw and the flush draw out there. it also smacks his range that i put him on pre flop squarely in the mush. should i check that flop or was i right in thinking that it was good to c-bet? the more i think about it the more i think i shouldnt and just go to the turn but c'est la vie.
that check raise is stupidly over the top. i know there's a chance of knocking someone out, but calling 4.5 – 5k to win about 7 isn't worth it in my opinion. am i right in thinking that or do i have the correct equity to call? what should my calling range be in this type of spot?
is his shoving range here a combination of combo draws or pair and draws, or is there more air / overpairs included? as an aside he hadnt made a move like this before to my knowledge, and certainly hadn't tried to over bet any pots previously, which makes me think that his range is more made hand than draw and he's shoving to protect his hand more than for value.
any help would be appreciated
May 30, 2012
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Hi okidokie,
I would not raise preflop with q8 but after the flop i agree 100% with your cbet of the top pair you got.
You also c bet for 2 reasons, one is to take the pot if they fold, second to see/evaluate where your opponents stand, so as the vilain is shoving all-in (43bb aprox) looks storng to me and I put his range something close to set, flush draw ,ooor total air trying to represent monster. From our side however I believe there is not enough value here calling him with just a pair and risking 40% !!! of your stuck.
May 30, 2012
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open seems fine, bet/fold flop is good
May 30, 2012
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i did fold on the flop. i just couldnt see that i was going to be good in this spot.
taking that aside though, what would peoples calling ranges be? would A8 be a call? would As8 be a call instead? is it 2 pair minimum? what about A5 of spades? 56 of spades etc…
was my range of his startting hands about right, or was i missing too much, or even adding too much into his range? i know its only a $1 tournament so the play's going to be awful at times, but im looking to get my fundamentals right before making the leap up to bigger stakes.
May 30, 2012
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64 69 87, 910ss, 55, 88, 77 and i guess AKss. i think i prob bet/fold AA KK QQ and AKs. Id need a read that he is super spewy agg post to widen it.
May 30, 2012
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Seems you played it just fine. Nothing wrong at all with opening there. In a dollar tourney and such a huge over shove there is no telling what he might have. Fold and move on, he’s spewy and you will be able to find a better spot to get his stack
May 30, 2012
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duggs
i was thinking that 1010+ and AK he'd 3bet pre. maybe thats a bit too wide and it would be qq+ but he's raising 38% of hands pre which is why i put it down to 1010. i suppose it was just a standard raise pre and a standard cbet, and a fold when i get shoved on. like i was saying its been a while since i played properly and its going to take a bit of time to get back into the swing of things.
thanks for the help though.
oh one more thing, is that flop too co-ordinated in peoples views to cbet?
May 30, 2012
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brolo23
you're right, i did fold. annoyingly i then get moved straight after but them's the breaks sometimes. it worked out better because the table was much softer lol
May 30, 2012
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okidokie said:
duggs
i was thinking that 1010+ and AK he'd 3bet pre. maybe thats a bit too wide and it would be qq+ but he's raising 38% of hands pre which is why i put it down to 1010. i suppose it was just a standard raise pre and a standard cbet, and a fold when i get shoved on. like i was saying its been a while since i played properly and its going to take a bit of time to get back into the swing of things.
thanks for the help though.
oh one more thing, is that flop too co-ordinated in peoples views to cbet?
betting for value on that flop seems fine, they call with plenty worse.
his preflop raising range does not equal his 3betting range. you need his 3betting % to approximate that but it likely hasnt converged. but no way its anywhere near his opening range. also he likely isnt opening 50% of hands its more likely he just opens alot of marginal hands. the range i gave is the range i bet/call flop with, sorry if that wasnt clear. there is definitely the possibility of Air, Ax, A8 A7 A6 A5 etc but there will just be so many better spots to take than this.
Im torn over cbet. If i missed flop completely i might just give up and not cbet this board as it smacks completing ranges if I opened from LP and got flatted in position. but as it is BVBvButton but as some people flat super wide we can cbet and fold out alot of broadway/Ax hands/smaller pp. also im more likely to cbet if i have a hand that can turn equity to make turn barreling more profitable.
May 30, 2012
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and yes villain likely squeezes AQ+ 99+, and occassionally flats AA/KK.
May 30, 2012
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thanks, this has been very helpful
July 3, 2010
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Opening is really bad when both blinds are playing 40% of hands and the hand we're opening doesn't flop well.
I really disagree with anyone saying the open isn't a mistake here.
May 30, 2012
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FkCoolers said:
Opening is really bad when both blinds are playing 40% of hands and the hand we're opening doesn't flop well.
I really disagree with anyone saying the open isn't a mistake here.
What range are you opening there coolers?
July 3, 2010
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Good question.
Probably something like …
22+, 87o+, 65s+, Q8s+, Q9 or QTo+
I'm not opening stuff like K6o vs. these guys who never fold. I'm going to open hands that can flop pretty well and I'm going to size my bets on the larger side vs the SB who has call station numbers, and I'll probably look to pot control vs the BB who has very laggy PF numbers and could know how to play postflop decently.
May 30, 2012
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Still quite a large range, but it’s hands that flop decently rather than my opening hand. That’s really interesting. I take it your range would widen the more concentrated their preflop range is? Like for instance if they’re running at 30% of hands preflop or even 20%.
July 3, 2010
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Yeah. I open ATC from CO and Button vs super nits on my left until I have a reason to change. The looser the blinds call you the more I tend to tighten a bit because even though we still have position postflop we are playing with a hand that just doesn't reach showdown as a winner too often and they are very likely to also be postflop calling stations.
Gotta figure out if they also call down post or if they like to see flops and check/fold when they miss.
May 30, 2012
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If they check fold when they miss coolers what range would you open into them?
In this case do you still opt for ATC as they fold too much post or somewhere in between?
July 3, 2010
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Probably somewhere in between although I'm sure more agg players than myself might say you should open nearly ATC.
May 30, 2012
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thanks alot everyone, this has been really useful for me.
June 5, 2012
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Mandatory BTN open. Do not fold, opening is such an edge.
May 30, 2012
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I agree with FKcoolers. But I normally do with his advice. I don't hate the open, but at this point in the tourney it's not mandatory. I have an issue with the opening amount. You have 17k and only make it 350. If I'm correct and remember what my Jedi Master Ttwist goes by in tourneys, he's normally 3x or 2.5x until BB gets to 300 at that point he makes an open raise to 675ish. We're at 80/160 and you make it 350? I'm still 3xing it in this spot. I'm making it 480, you have 17k. I think only making it 350 you allow the SB & BB to come in with crap and you have crap as well. Now you hit top pair. I like the cbet. I actually thinks it's standard in this spot. If you're going to open Q8 and his top pair you have to Cbet. Again, I don't like the Q8o open, you can't possibly call that retards jam. You basically lost 1k in a spot you didn't need to. Not sure how the rest of the tourney went for you, but I think playing Q8o in this spot is asking for trouble. It's EARLY, why give away chips now against laggy retards. I really think even most of the pro beasts on this spots would agree.
May 30, 2012
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The more I think about this situation, the more I agree it’s a fold. My raise size was just something I’ve been laying around with, where from later position I would reduce my raise size. So early to mid would be 3x, mid to late would be 2.5x and button would generally be 2x although I made it a slight bigger for some reason.
Yes this was a leak, yes this was something that could have been abused, but my reasoning was that from earlier position I’m going to have more premium hands and so I would obviously get more value on these hands and the later position I was in, the more my range would become looser, the cheaper my raise size and therefore the cheaper my bluffs.
I am thinking that a more standardised amount being bet is going to be better, but I haven’t totally given up on this concept.
May 30, 2012
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Oh and I bubbled the ft but hey ho. Like I said it had been a while since I last played and I was still a bit rusty in certain aspects of my game.
May 30, 2012
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I think most if not EVER pro on this site would tell you to be constant with your bet sizings no matter where you're at (UTG or c/o) This way it's more difficuit for players to put you on a hand and range you. Ex…. 80/160 … 480 from UTG & c/o with AA or K4dd.
Plus, when your on the button and raise just above a mini raise like you did, you're giving solid/very good and even BAD players a chance to smash a flop. That flop is pretty wet and you hit top pair with a good kicker. You allowed them to come in at a huge discount of sorts. As TTWIST and LEE CHILDS would ask me, “What was your plan?” You did the right thing by cbetting and folding.
Just think you don't need to WASTE losing 900 chips in this spot. If you do that a few times in different spots in a tourney it adds up. At least give your chance a better shot to win this hand by open raising to 3x. If I'm playing from the SB/BB vs that raise I would call that because I wouldn't give you much credit for a hand with that raise from the button. Obviously, table dynamics mean a bunch as well.
I could be wrong, but I think that's the better play.
May 30, 2012
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disagree regarding sizing P, im not 3xing with 20-25bb stacks at table
May 30, 2012
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Unless I'm misreading this post…………. Our hero has 100bb's (17k), even the villian has 50bb's (6.9k)@ 80/160 That should be a 3x all day early in the tourney. I'm not going to start 2.5xing it till at least 150/300 w/ antes.
May 30, 2012
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I’ve been thinking about bet sizing a bit today and the more I think, the more I should relate it to both the size of the blinds but also the size of my stack. What I mean is that if I was 100 bb deep and my opponents are pretty much the same then I should be 3 x ing more than say my stack or my opponents stack was more shallow, say 30 – 40 bb deep.
My sizing in this situation was small and in that respect incorrect. I knew I’d played the hand sub optimally, just didn’t think it was this bad. I think I need to start again with the fundamentals. Really pleased there’s been alot of really interesting and useful discussion. Many thanks again
May 30, 2012
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And don't take mistake my advise for the way you SHOULD have played it. Just giving an opinion and ideas that have been taught to me by the pros on this site. That's what P-aire 146 would have done in that spot. You take all the advise and translate it into your game and the style. Don't be BigDog or Cougars or Danny or Lee or KB, be YOU.
It's always a learning experience. Just hope you never think you know enough.
GLGL
May 30, 2012
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but are you going to size your betting every hand based on who is still left to act? at a table with 20bb stacks i will just open the same size into everyone.
May 30, 2012
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duggs
reading back my post i left that bit out it seems. most definitely i’m going to be doing that. in fact it should be one of the primary concerns. basically my check list will go something like:
blind level
my stack size
opponents left to act stack size
opponents left to act tendencies
how many opponents left to act
my image
my cards
i think thats about it. if i’ve forgotten something i’ll add it into here. also if somedone sees a glaring miss from me then let me know.
obviously i’ll bet less when we’re all 20bb deep compared to 50bb which in turn will be less than 100bb which in turn will be less than 200bb etc.
p-aire 146
i dont for one minute want to copy someones style, but i also think that trying to get various opinions and disagreements can only benefit ones game and in that respect i’m glad of this. fkcoolers came in with some points earlier, aswell as yourself , duggs and anyone else i haven’t listed which i’m thinking about and trying to mix in with my own way of looking at things. it would be very boring if we were all the same after all. there are no right answers after all, but some answers are more right than others 
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