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Bovada $15k 6 max - Overbet on paired board
jasonchr
Charlotte, NC
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February 20, 2014 - 10:18 am
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Blinds 150/300

 

UTG  (15bb)

UTG +1 (Me) (55bb)

Button (41bb)

SB (42bb)

BB (38bb)

 

UTG +1: Adiamond10heart raise to 777

Button: reraise to 1693

UTG +1: call 

 

Pot is 3070 now

 

Flop: 10club Jclub Jspade

 

UTG +1: check

Button: check

 

Turn: Aclub

 

UTG +1: check

Button: bets 6477

 

What's your play?

jacobsharktank
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February 20, 2014 - 10:59 am
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Has villain 3bet prior? Has he appeared at least aware of how to play the game prior, like opening light ip, cbetting, floating, etc. In position 3bets in lp can be exactly what they say they are sometimes. I think I probably fold this to his 3bet, but I'm not sure why exactly. care to elaborate why you call? do you have a plan past that or is it more focused on “it cost me x and i have ATo” there's no shame if that's what your plan was, i'm just curious. this is how we get better.

 

As played, I fold turn because of the following-

– while you've shown multiple streets of passivity/weakness, villain should have a stronger range here in the first place because of his 3b, unless he 3bets light, and what does that mean really anyway? if he's 3betting weaker aces, or suited connectors, or small pairs/middle pairs, you gotta figure out what he has here the most often based on what you''ve been given. his turn overbet seems to say he can't be THAT good, but we shouldnt discount his prior play because of that. he may think he's getting max value when you have a J when he has a straight but he's also protecting against draws. No matter what, 2xing the pot is confusing lol. his weak aces are freerolling some part of the time and youre chopping against them. his merged Jx hands may think you have an ace and he really wants to get max value and confuse you. hands like QJ/J9s. you have two blockers to those hand types so that removes available combos (two T's are gone so he's far less likely to have JTs T9s

– you beat no part of his value range anymore, and are chopping to the parts that you were beating. on top of that, he's freerolling around 1/4 the time that youre chopping and youre at the mercy of his bet size on the riv.

– you likely can raise and cbet against other players at the table

– you're getting the point in the tournament (or just past it not sure) where reg is about to close, so the dude's coming in with 5-15bb are now going to be playing the simplest form of tournament poker and a lot of them don't do it correctly. youll want to have a bigger stack to withstand the swings of the multiple 60/40s youll surely find yourself in very soon. as one busts, youll have him replaced almost definitely with another because there are going to be a large portion of the remaining players hovering under 20bb. i'm not sure if this is reason enough to avoid big pot spots, but it certainly is a push to avoid them a positive-nonzero amount of times over infinity.

hope this helps!

 

I wanted to add that after thinking about it for a while, I think hands like KT or QT  maybe play like this if they have the club as well. They have a pair, youve shown weakness, they don't know what you have specifically because lots of people raise/flat 3bets and lots more do it too much. If he has like QQ/KK with the club I feel like he should be checking back flop and turn, but he may feel he can get you off your Aces and he has the club to flush up anyway and he has discounted that you don't have a Jack after checking twice.

jasonchr
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February 20, 2014 - 11:31 am
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I had been pretty aggressive at this table so my thought at the time was that the villian may be playing back at me. I really thought A10 was doing decent against his 3B range, which I was thinking more medium pairs / broadway hands / suited connectors. So that was my justification for flatting.

 

On the flop I have showdown value and want to give him a chance to bluff. When he overbets on the turn, this feels really polarized to me. Either he has it or he has no idea what to do with his hand. I've seen bad players play KK/QQ like this as well. They don't know what to do so they just overbet/shove. 

 

But as you mentioned, there are probably better spots than this to pick up chips. But I hate giving up pots! laugh

jacobsharktank
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February 20, 2014 - 11:42 am
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well when you say he's polarized on that board, is he? unless he 2x's with his underpairs that completely whiffed, i can't think of a range of hands youre doing well against with the runout. like yah he can “have it or not have it” but what is “it” in this instance. there are lots of types of hands that can vbet there. Jx,  Ax, KQ, flush, boat..the hands that are “bluffs” arnt really bluffs in that he has the nuts or not, it's likely merged range and not polarized right? he can have many hands here. broadway hands are doing very well on this board. i agree that light 3betting means ATo can be ahead, but when you know he's cbetting, you need to be calling the flop and youre not even completely sure youre ahead because he'd also 3b bigger hands that AT. when you hit, i understand checking to pick off bluffs, and i also understand his overbet likely means he doesn't know what to do with his hand, but i think his hand still ends up better than yours most of the time and he's made it easier for you by overbetting. i'd love to hear what other people have to say.

weirdFlop
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February 20, 2014 - 12:01 pm
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Fold. This is a loose open and a looser call preflop. You say he has pocket pairs and Broadway hands. What Broadway hand isnt crushing you. KQ, QJ, AK, AQ, KJ, TJ. Youre beating 88. Great. Hes telling you he wants to play for stacks. Is this the hand you want to stack off with?

jasonchr
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February 20, 2014 - 12:23 pm
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Good points. I think I became too focused on his bet sizing, which just looked fishy to me. All I really have here is a bluff catcher…

jacobsharktank
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February 20, 2014 - 12:50 pm
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what lol opening co ATo is not loose dude, especially if you read that he said he's been active and aggro. ATo is one of the better hands of an opening range from the co. i agree with the situation, but right here i mean opening ATo from the cut off is def not loose.

weeeeee
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February 20, 2014 - 3:00 pm
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weirdFlop, remember this is a 6 max, not a full ring. I understand folding pre at UTG+1 with ATo and would be considered loose. With facing a 3 bet, my inital thought would be fold and wait for a better spot. It just seems like that the call, as Jacob is saying, better have a plan but when you check it down. 

This flop doesn't boad well for ATo. As played, i'd be looking for the fold button. The 3 bet range has J's all over the place. I am kind of leaning toward a fold on the 3 bet. Maybe would have floated ATs and 99+ but ATo is a slight dog against a 3 bet range. 

jasonchr
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February 20, 2014 - 3:22 pm
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Good point that his range has a ton of J's. I ran the math this afternoon and the call is definitely not +ev against his range. Prob around 40% – so yeah, if this had been suited it would have been a better call I think. 

 

But like a fish I called his turn bet and river shove and he flipped over J5. Lesson learned!

jacobsharktank
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February 20, 2014 - 4:31 pm
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yah see what i was talking about though? he 3b bluffed but did it with a hand that plays absolutely horribly when called. then when he flopped gold he didn't know how to proceed. he only made money then after you made a mistake by calling the turn. but see how he made a mistake and then made another mistake that would prevent him from making anything? it becomes him putting in money when bad, and then not making any money when he outboards you, which is overall bad because it's obviously negative ev to see J5 and put in more money than AT

MrPunty
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February 20, 2014 - 5:57 pm
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I think the call pre is a mistake if your reasoning (his range includes medium pairs and broadways) is correct. That's because even though it contains some hands that ATo is decent against, you're also contending with the top of his 3-bet range which crushes you; playing OOP with a hand like ATo is not the ticket to profitville. The merits of calling might be different if you think he's 3-betting you with a polarized range rather than a strong de-polarized range, though even in that case I think the right play here is either folding or 4bet/folding pre. I'd rather flat a 3 bet OOP with a hand that has good implied odds (T9s, 76s) if the price is right than a hand with reverse implied odds.

As played, fold the turn, and villain played the hand quite well. It doesn't look fishy to me at all – his preflop 3 bet sizing was good, and after you check the turn he can punish you and your obviously capped range by betting large with his entire range. I would like bet/folding the turn better than bluffcatching turn and river.

EllDan
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February 20, 2014 - 6:58 pm
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Like the Pre raise but I'm folding to the reraise.

SIGABA
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February 21, 2014 - 1:22 am
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Well I just saw the results, so I don't know if I should even answer this.  But instead I'll tell you what I was thinking before I read down to the point where I saw that he had J5….

 

I like your call of the RR.  AT five handed is going to be the best hand more often than not.  When the flop comes J J T, I would bet here.  Find out where you stand.  I would normally bet about 1/3 of pot on rainbow boards, but with a flush draw and straight draw out there I would bet around 2/5, maybe 1222…

 

See what he does after that and go from there.  But 5-handed, I would never check this flop.  Any club, any Q, K, or 9 (and even an Ace) and you have no idea where you stand.  I think you have to bet the flop.

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