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December 11, 2013
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This is a hand that came up yesterday in the Bovada $109 10k that has been bothering me.. I really think I should have found a fold with AA on flop in a 4bet pot here.. Am I crazy? Disclaimer- I don’t have a HH and posting from memory so bet sizings could be slightly off.
5 handed w/ 25 players left, I have a 15k stack @ 200/400 and am 4th or 5th in chips. Villain to my left is chip leader with 32k. Everyone else at table rather short. No specific notes on villain but he seemed very solid and was playing something like 24/20 4-5% 3bet over maybe 50-80 hands. He had 3bet me once a few orbits back and I folded pre.
UTG folds
Hero: AA raises to 800
Btn: 3bets to 2000
2 folds
Hero: 4bets to ~4400 IIRC
Btn: Calls
Flop: xKQ rainbow (10,500)
Hero: Shoves AA (10,000)
I really feel like we have to give villain a range of QQ+ here, which means we have to check/fold this flop. I really doubt villain is flatting a 4bet here with AK, and even if we add AKs to his range there are 2 combos of that! I shoved flop really fast and I don’t think I put much thought into it. I was basically like “I have AA in a 4bet pot with a 1:1 SPR, I’m all in”.
What are your thoughts here guys?
November 17, 2013
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It seems like the stack sizes make this a bit weird once he flats the 4bet. Just curious as to why the 4bet as opposed to shoving or flatting his 3bet?
The other question is can we limit his range to QQ+? Maybe, but I've reviewed my own HHs from this tournament and I've seen wider 4b flats. It's not really that much more for him to call with all the money already out there. Just my thoughts…
December 11, 2013
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jasonchr said:
It seems like the stack sizes make this a bit weird once he flats the 4bet. Just curious as to why the 4bet as opposed to shoving or flatting his 3bet?
The other question is can we limit his range to QQ+? Maybe, but I've reviewed my own HHs from this tournament and I've seen wider 4b flats. It's not really that much more for him to call with all the money already out there. Just my thoughts…
I 4bet that size with the intention of shoving pot on every flop… With our stack depth and table dynamic I thought a 4bet had a chance of looking weaker than a shove. I guess there's an argument for flatting the 3bet. I just thought building a pot and shipping flop or getting it in pre would be a better line. Not crazy about playing a 3bet pot oop vs chipleader even w/ AA when the alternative is to likely get it in pre or just shipping pot on the flop with a significantly lower SPR.
I agree that villain is getting pretty great odds to flat vs the 4bet, but is that less relevant with a 1:1 SPR vs a very strong range? I'm not sure. I don't think he can really flat wide there in this situation, but maybe I'm way off.
March 6, 2014
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I think your play is pretty standard and although your small four bet looks nutty, I can't imagine playing the hand any different other than the 3bet call, which is pretty sweet. His 4 bet flat range could be AQ, QK, and 88+, especially with your small reraise. Nice hand.
-Church
February 27, 2014
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I think he might call with any pair, not only QQ, KK, AA
Especially since he is the chip leader he might be happy to 5bet all in with QQ+
I think he will call any pair and AK, AQ and even AJ +f he is on the cambling side…
January 20, 2014
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I agree that his range could be a lot wider than QQ+. He is the chip leader playing 24/20. He did call your 4bet, but I've found agg players do that pretty wide. I think he might do this w/ 99+, AJs+, and maybe KQs. You are only 5 handed and the UTG folded. I think your shove on the flop is only getting called by AA, KK, QQ, AK, & KQ. AA and AK are unlikely because you have 2 blockers. I think 99, TT, JJ and AQ would fold. I think in this spot you're only getting called by hands that beat you.
Maybe you could check the flop with the intention of shoving if he bets? You're still getting all in, but maybe this way you can get more information by checking. This way you could get an extra 4k if he fires on this flop w/ say AQ. You're still getting stacked by QQ, KK, and KQ, but at least this way you pick up a few extra chips when he decides to bet a weaker hand. Idk, tough spot. I think it's just a cooler; idk how you could have gotten away from it. I would be curious to see one of the pros thoughts on this one 
Nice post
January 20, 2014
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Jason and I talked for a while about this hand on skype. I thought I would post it hear to add to the thread.
[5:39:48 PM] Steve Barton: DID YOU SEE THAT HAND DOUG POSTED ON THE AA?
[5:39:59 PM] Jason Mauney: yes, i commented on it
[5:40:29 PM] Steve Barton: YEAH I DID TOO.
[5:40:42 PM] Steve Barton: I THINK HIS RANGE WAS TOO TIGHT ALSO
[5:40:51 PM] Jason Mauney: agreed
[5:41:41 PM] Steve Barton: I WAS THINKING HE COULD HAVE CHECKED THE FLOP THEN SHOVED TO A BET BY THE VILLAIN
[5:42:23 PM] Steve Barton: THAT WAY IF THE VILLAIN WAS BETTING SOMETHING LIKE AQ THEN DOUG SHOVED, HE WOULD GET THE EXTRA 3-4K
[5:42:48 PM] Steve Barton: IF THE VILLAIN DID HAVE QQ, KK OR KQ THEN THE RESULT WOULD HAVE BEEN THE SAME ANYWAYS
[5:43:28 PM] Steve Barton: BUT ON THOSE TIMES WHERE VILLIAN DOES HAVE AK OR AQ OR AJ AND HE BETS THE FLOP, DOUG GETS AN EXTRA FEW CHIPS
[5:44:18 PM] Jason Mauney: yeah, my preference would be to either shove PF or make the 4B bigger
[5:44:45 PM] Steve Barton: WHY IS THAT?
[5:45:56 PM] Jason Mauney: villian has almost double doug's stack and shoving on his 3b might get him to look doug up with AQ+ 88+ etch
[5:46:03 PM] Jason Mauney: especially in a 6max game
[5:46:35 PM] Jason Mauney: if he is going to 4b, make it bigger so that villian is more committed to the hand and calling dougs shove
[5:47:06 PM] Jason Mauney: doug still left himself 10k after the 4b
[5:47:39 PM] Jason Mauney: if it was only 5k more the villian is more likely to call i belive
[5:49:10 PM] Steve Barton: THAT MAKES SENSE
[5:49:23 PM] Steve Barton: SO MAKE THE 4BET SOMETHING LIKE 5500?
[5:49:36 PM] Jason Mauney: something like that
[5:49:41 PM] Jason Mauney: can't remember the numbers off the top of my head
[5:50:54 PM] Steve Barton: 200/400, DOUG RAISED TO 800, VILLIAN 3BET 2000, DOUG 4BET 4400
[5:51:13 PM] Steve Barton: MAYBE 5800 4BET
[5:51:40 PM] Jason Mauney: right, maybe even 6400
[5:51:46 PM] Steve Barton: AH OK
[5:58:28 PM] Steve Barton: BUT BY MAKING IT 6400, THEN HE LEAVES HIMSELF 8600 BEHIND
[5:58:59 PM] Steve Barton: ARE WE HOPING THE VILLAIN JUST CALLS THEN WE SHOVE THE FLOP FOR 8600 INSTEAD OF 10,000?
[5:59:48 PM] Steve Barton: OR ARE WE HOPING THE VILLAIN THINKS THIS IS A OVERBET BLUFF AND HE SHOVES ON US?
[6:00:29 PM] Jason Mauney: the idea is making the pot larger so the amount doug is shoving for is less in relation to the pot
[6:00:58 PM] Jason Mauney: with all the money in the pot the villian will feel committed to the hand either way
[6:01:04 PM] Steve Barton: AH, YEAH CAUSE HE SHOVED FOR 10K INTO A 10K POT
[6:01:10 PM] Jason Mauney: exactly
[6:01:45 PM] Jason Mauney: it's the same idea as shoving on him preflop…just different way to achieve the same end
[6:01:57 PM] Steve Barton: THEN HE'S SHOVING 8600 INTO A 12,800 POT, INSTEAD OF 10K INTO 10K
[6:02:43 PM] Jason Mauney: yh, i'd prob make it so he's shoving 5k into a 15k pot or something like that
[6:03:48 PM] Jason Mauney: and villian is going to be like oh well, might as well call for only 5k more
[6:03:59 PM] Steve Barton: HE'D HAVE TO 4BET TO LIKE 7500 THEN. THAT'S A BIG JUMP FROM A 3BET OF 2000
[6:04:45 PM] Jason Mauney: thats why my preference is to shove…but it's really only like 3xing the bet…definitely not unheard of
[6:05:18 PM] Steve Barton: SHOVING AGAINST THE 3BET OF 2000 YOU MEAN?
[6:05:23 PM] Jason Mauney: it's not really that much from villians stack of 30k
[6:05:29 PM] Jason Mauney: yes
[6:07:19 PM] Jason Mauney: if doug was deeper i wouldn't necessarily shove but i think it makes sense with doug's stack size
[6:07:39 PM] Jason Mauney: if he and villian both had 30k it would be different
[6:07:55 PM] Steve Barton: LET'S SEE, I THINK VILLIAN HAD 35K, IF HE SHOVED 15K THEN THERE WOULD BE 17K IN THE POT AND 13K FOR VILLAIN TO CALL
[6:08:21 PM] Steve Barton: YEAH VILLAIN MIGHT LOOK HIM UP THERE W/ 88+
[6:08:29 PM] Steve Barton: OR AQ+
[6:08:37 PM] Jason Mauney: i think so
[6:08:50 PM] Steve Barton: I BET HE WOULD DEF LOOK HIM UP W/ JJ+ AND AK
[6:09:12 PM] Steve Barton: TT AND 99 MAYBE, AND POS 88
December 11, 2013
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Steve, Thanks for the post. I agree with you 100% that check/shoving flop is better than leading with the shove. I didn't read the whole skype chat you posted since I talked with Jason about it as well.
I randomly happened to listen to Thinking Poker podcast #29 on my drive to work today (craving some Tommyisms 
) and right off the bat they do a HH of a similar preflop spot in the WSOP Main Event. The hero in the hand 4bet smaller instead of 4bet shoving and left himself with a 1:1 SPR on the flop. Some of the analysis by Nate and Andrew really kind of solidified what people have already said itt and what I was sort of thinking after mulling the hand over for a few days. Here are my conclusions:
1- 4bet Shoving pre > 4betting small. Basically, there's no way I can't look super super strong here either way, and may be more likely to get calls by slightly worse hands pre with a shove.
2- As played pre, I'm never folding any flop and probably should never fold any flop. In the HH review on TP, Andrew actually says he's probably not folding if the flop comes TJQ hearts and we have black Aces. Can't imagine a worse board than that. However, on this particular board I think check/get it in is wayy better than shoving.
3- I probably posted this hand a bit out of results orientedness as I was deep in a 10k in the middle of a big downswing and wanted to recover. I genuinely did think that I maybe made a mistake where a very good player should be able to find a fold. I think that was wrong now especially against an anonymous field where I only have reads from that one MTT. Maybe vs a guy I have an 8k hand database and rock solid reads on and the perfect spot and I'm at the top of my game and I am psychic then I can find a fold.
Thanks for the analyses guys, appreciated!!!
April 1, 2014
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I did not read all the replies but my two cents is your pre flop 4 bet looks super nutted, when I have 8x the initial open or 3bet I like shoving over raising. When he flats your 4bet it seems like he set mining a large pair or some other hand he feels is behind but is playing on implied odds. Since you did not shove pre flop you are now stuck with an awkward stack on the flop, and shoving on him allows him to play perfectly against you so he can fold all hands you want in and can only call with a hand that beats you.
TPE Pro
August 25, 2012
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Never not getting it in on the flop, but I agree that check/shoving is better than betting. You give him the chance to spazz with some kind of hand he might fold to a bet. Maybe he thinks we have JJ and we're check/folding. His range is certainly way wider than QQ+ here, because his 3bet range is wider than that to begin with when we're 5-handed, and when we 4bet small enough to give him 4:1 (which is fine) he's probably going to be peeling our 4bet relatively often.
In general I think it's hard to mess up a hand where you have an overpair with 1x PSB left on the flop (hint: there is too much money in the pot for you to fold pretty much ever), but I think checking is maybe marginally better than betting here. I do think you're getting 'monsters under the bed' syndrome somewhat in assuming his range is purely QQ+, since it doesn't even make that much sense as a spot for him to flat QQ or KK in the first place.
Two other things:
1 – I think 4bet shoving pre would be awful. It's easy to say it looks weaker than 4betting, but does it really? Would you ever actually take a weak hand and cram 15k into a pot of what, 4k? If so, I think that'd be a bad play in the first place. I certainly think this is a spot where your 4bet could conceivably be light from the villain's perspective, so I have no issues with your decision to 4bet or your sizing. You give him room to flat or spew and shove it on your head. I don't hate flatting pre but you would prefer to do it versus a villain whose 3betting range was confirmed to be wider – if this guy isn't crazy aggressive then you're probably better off just going for value by 4betting.
2 – If I'm honest this just seems like one of those hands where you ran into KQ and busted the tournament and felt like you played it badly, to be blunt. I would like to see people post more hands on the TPE forums where they actually win the hand or it doesn't go to showdown, because there's something of a trend towards posts of a “I lost this hand, please reassure me that I just got unlucky” sort of nature recently. Not a huge amount wrong with that, just not great for everyone's thought processes.
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