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Would like some feedback on my thought process and the way this hand went down with me and fellow TPE member Ned Weizenegger. Blinds 600-1200 100. My stack 28k, Ned's stack 38k. Note: I had been 3 betting a decent amount of the time and had shown down garbage. Prior to this hand Ned had just doubled to get close to 40k. He had been playing relatively snug because he had 15-20 bb's for the last level or two. Action folds to Ned in the cutoff who opens for 2700. I look down at A10o on the button. My thought process is that I'm obviously ahead of Ned's opening range but based on stack sizes I don't really want to 3bet and then be forced to fold to a perfect 4bet shove stack. I decide that 3betting is a bad play, essentially turning A10o into a bluff so I decide to flat and play the hand in position. The big blind comes along as well. Pot = 9600 Flop J88 rainbow, action goes check, check. I contemplate betting 3500ish but decide not to because I'm going to rep an 8 here and take the pot down on later streets. I also found Ned's check to be very odd. I figured he would check/call AK, AQ, or his monsters like JJ or AA. I check and the turn is a 9c putting two clubs on board. BB checks and Ned bets 3200. I decide to flat instead of raising now that I'm open ended. BB folds. At this point I feel like my line looks really strong and I don't think Ned is comfortable with his hand. The river brings a 2d and after some thought Ned checks. If he bet 5500ish I was going to jam for 22k as I think this line looks really strong and he's folding so many hands. When he checks I really think he's giving up a majority of the time as he would go for a value bet if he thought he was good. I then bet 5300 obviously hoping he would fold. This value bet screams I want a call and with the line I took I think it's accurate. Ned quickly calls and turns over Q10 and scoops the pot. Post hand analysis I really thought I should've bet flop and taken the lead in the hand, but regardless I like the line that I took as well. Hand analysis and criticism welcome.
October 6, 2010
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tbh i prolly just shove pre here a lot of the time.
Don't mind turning ATo into bluff at all here and folding if he 4b shoves. If he shoves w AJ+, he'll be doing us a favor by telling us he's usually got us dominated.
Also think he's folding to a 3bet w everything but the very top of his range since he just doubled up after waiting patiently for a while w a semi-short stack. I can see him folding AJ and even AQ at times to the 3b – well, AQo – maybe not, but def AJo. Not a big fan of flatting w ATo unless I'm absolutely sure he's opening 30%+. If he's open ing w 20-25%, it's not like we have him crushed.
Hate 3b f'ing w a 23bb stack, but doing it occasionally is not the biggest sin in the world, imo.
Benny I agree with you here but only to an extent. I'm not 3bet jamming nearly as wide live as I do online for obvious reasons. I think online this is a standard 3bet shove a lot of the time but live I feel like people aren't opening as wide. Plus I tend to read people and their hand ranges better live giving me more of an advantage so I don't necessarily like to 3bet jam A10o here because he's not calling with Ax so unless it's 88 or 99 we are always crushed. Keep in mind that this tournament is arguably the best structured tournament in the midwest so I'm fine with 20ish bb's. I'd obviously want more, but still fine.
Live, PF I agree flatting is fine. I rather see you bet the flop even on this board as people will fold a ton of hands even when they feel you are full of it a lot of the time. If you check, and if your plan is to bluff i think a better play is to raise turn as you have the leverage of the possibility of more money going in on the River. (if your opponent holds a marginal hand he is much more unlikely to call on the turn as he would be concerned with more money going in OTR). So even with your open ender i rather make the move there and fold to a raise. OTR, as played, if your read is that he is weak i get your bluff, but if I look at the betting pattern from his point of view you are really polarized to very strong hands like an 8 or a boat, and bluffs, so i think he would be inclined to call a lot of marginal hands so my decision would probably be to let it go. One final point is that maybe you could bet 4600 or so and get the same effect, but i’d like to hear from others on bet sizing.
Preflop, I like a 3bet. Either a shove or 6200/soulread if he 4bet jams. If you’ve been 3betting and showing down garbage, AT becomes a fairly strong hand.
I think the notion that we’re turning our hand into a bluff is sort of irrelevant at this stack size. We have an ace (blocker at least), facing a cutoff open, with just over 20bb. I’m probably oversimplifying this decision since I play so much more online than live though.
Flatting isn’t horrible though, I guess. But if we do that, I think our best choice is betting the flop when checked to. This is why we flat raises in position, right? At this stack size, there’s just too many chips in the middle not to fire at this flop.
If your plan is to rep an eight on future streets, I think that’s VERY thin. How many eights are in your flatting range preflop? Seems too fancy. J88 is a pretty damn good flop for your perceived range to flat a preflop raise on the button. You can have a ton of jacks in this spot, but basically your only eights would seem to be quads and suited combos of A8, 98, and 87, some of which it would seem like you’d be 3betting since they’re not really strong enough to flat (and flatting 98 and 87 at this stack size seems a bit spewy).
I’m assuming weizened has to think you’re going to bet the flop if you have a jack since so many turns can be bad for you, and therefore he’s going to check/fold most of his broadways and small pocket pairs, which is obviously a nice result given the value of adding those chips to our stack. This hand should end on the flop imo.
rivermen123 said:
Preflop, I like a 3bet. Either a shove or 6200/soulread if he 4bet jams. If you've been 3betting and showing down garbage, AT becomes a fairly strong hand.
I think the notion that we're turning our hand into a bluff is sort of irrelevant at this stack size. We have an ace (blocker at least), facing a cutoff open, with just over 20bb. I'm probably oversimplifying this decision since I play so much more online than live though.
Flatting isn't horrible though, I guess. But if we do that, I think our best choice is betting the flop when checked to. This is why we flat raises in position, right? At this stack size, there's just too many chips in the middle not to fire at this flop.
If your plan is to rep an eight on future streets, I think that's VERY thin. How many eights are in your flatting range preflop? Seems too fancy. J88 is a pretty damn good flop for your perceived range to flat a preflop raise on the button. You can have a ton of jacks in this spot, but basically your only eights would seem to be quads and suited combos of A8, 98, and 87, some of which it would seem like you'd be 3betting since they're not really strong enough to flat (and flatting 98 and 87 at this stack size seems a bit spewy).
I'm assuming weizened has to think you're going to bet the flop if you have a jack since so many turns can be bad for you, and therefore he's going to check/fold most of his broadways and small pocket pairs, which is obviously a nice result given the value of adding those chips to our stack. This hand should end on the flop imo.
+1 to this. I def think I was outleveling myself in this situation. Funny thing was is that I reached for chips to bet on the flop but thought for about ten more seconds and decided to check. Def think a 3bet or flop bet is the best play. Sometimes I take really weird lines, but I think thats a good thing.
JLUDEOBV said:
rivermen123 said:
Preflop, I like a 3bet. Either a shove or 6200/soulread if he 4bet jams. If you've been 3betting and showing down garbage, AT becomes a fairly strong hand.
I think the notion that we're turning our hand into a bluff is sort of irrelevant at this stack size. We have an ace (blocker at least), facing a cutoff open, with just over 20bb. I'm probably oversimplifying this decision since I play so much more online than live though.
Flatting isn't horrible though, I guess. But if we do that, I think our best choice is betting the flop when checked to. This is why we flat raises in position, right? At this stack size, there's just too many chips in the middle not to fire at this flop.
If your plan is to rep an eight on future streets, I think that's VERY thin. How many eights are in your flatting range preflop? Seems too fancy. J88 is a pretty damn good flop for your perceived range to flat a preflop raise on the button. You can have a ton of jacks in this spot, but basically your only eights would seem to be quads and suited combos of A8, 98, and 87, some of which it would seem like you'd be 3betting since they're not really strong enough to flat (and flatting 98 and 87 at this stack size seems a bit spewy).
I'm assuming weizened has to think you're going to bet the flop if you have a jack since so many turns can be bad for you, and therefore he's going to check/fold most of his broadways and small pocket pairs, which is obviously a nice result given the value of adding those chips to our stack. This hand should end on the flop imo.
+1 to this. I def think I was outleveling myself in this situation. Funny thing was is that I reached for chips to bet on the flop but thought for about ten more seconds and decided to check. Def think a 3bet or flop bet is the best play. Sometimes I take really weird lines, but I think thats a good thing.
I agree with both of these. It's good to get creative at times esp against good thinking opponents because it's just to hard to get chips from them otherwise. I think your thought process is good but I think rivermen is spot on with his analysis in this situation.
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