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Bluff catcher on double paired board, BDPO 200k
MovesLikeDarvin

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March 23, 2015 - 4:44 pm
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8k/16k/1.6k; approximately 36 left in the tournament.

its bovada and a relatively new table, so few table reads except that field in general seems weak-passive. noticed overall that a high percentage of opens were going straight thru.

 

hero (484k) is UTG1 with QdQh. Opens to 36k. Villain (BB, 765k) defends.

 

FLOP (91.2k)

4c4d8s

BB checks, hero bets 34.5k, BB calls.

 

TURN (160.2k)

4c4d8s {8c}

BB checks, hero checks.

 

RIVER (160.2k)

4c4d8s 8c {Jh)

BB bets 144k, Hero?

 

Do you prefer betting turn?

Would you treat QQ as a top-of-range bluff catcher? What do you make of large sizing?

Kalculater
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March 23, 2015 - 6:30 pm
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Yes I definitely treat QQ as near the top of our range for bluff catching. The only hands we have in our range that are better (for bluff-catching) are KK and AA. I think the large sizing here by villain is good as it puts us in a tough spot and will fold a fair portion of our range such as Ace-highs and 99-TT. I can see villain either having 8x, Jx or possibly a busted straight draw from the flop (56, 67 etc).

I think we have to call.

DTUSC
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March 23, 2015 - 6:43 pm
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Still a lot of hands you could extract value from on the turn like Ax, 55+, and fd, but his range could be really wide from BB and it creates a great opportunity for a c/r bluff or an even bigger river bomb if you bet. Therefore, I like the turn check for pot control and to possibly induce bluffs from those weaker hands on the river.

His river bet sizing is pretty sick. The line he took makes it look like a monster, but you were never able to really narrow his range much so there are still plenty of hands you beat. Plus, he could be thinking you are weak because of the small flop c-bet and turn check. He may be thinking he can value bet Ax, Jx, pp or bluff you off with air. I would call.

SonicNY
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March 23, 2015 - 7:22 pm
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Based on his play my thoughts are that he called your raise with a low-mid pocket pair and figured you missed the flop. Villain calls your standard c-bet on the flop. He checks the turn to put action on you/get information and keep the pot down. He saw your turn-check as a sign you missed the flop/turn and were trying to pot control by getting to the river for free. Probably doesn’t bet out on the turn because his hand isn’t strong enough but is good enough to get to the river if you whiffed. River comes and leads out with a sizable bet because he’s expecting you to either fold a complete miss on the board or call with something weak enough that his bluff-catcher will hold without giving up a huge stack if he’s wrong. I think betting the turn would cause him to fold a reasonable percentage of the time but I would be looking to pot control a bit there and just check as well. On the river I just call because I think the Q’s are good enough to hold but are not good enough to raise and possibly get put all-in with a single pair. Thoughts?

SIGABA
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March 23, 2015 - 11:53 pm
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I like checking the turn. You can now bluff catch.

That being said, this feels like a full house to me. His bet is so big. Is he really betting 55+ there hoping to get a call from your Ax?

It feels wrong to fold QQ here, but with that sizing, it looks to me like he has it. I would fold.

Foucault

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March 24, 2015 - 12:17 pm
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QQ very clearly ought to be strong enough to bet three times for value, particularly considering your sizing on the flop (which I like, don't get me wrong). The only reason to check the turn would be for exploitive reasons, because you think Villain won't defend as wide as he should on this board. Again, I think that's a good assumption against most MTT players, and I like the turn check.

When he near-pots the river, your hand is indeed a bluff-catcher. You aren't going to see pocket pairs or even a Jack from him. He either has a full house or he's bluffing.

I also don't think your hand matters much, given that he won't be value-betting worse. 99 might actually be a slightly better bluff-catcher if we think Villain is more likely to play 98o than Q9o. Likewise, AJ or AT might be better because I doubt he turns any Ax into a bluff, whereas if he called flop with KQ he might turn that into a bluff. But those are all really small differences.

He should get to the river with plenty of hands that would like to bluff, so it would be easy for him to exploit you if you were to fold most of your bluff-catchers. In my experience, though, most people just don't bluff as much as they should in this situation, and when they do they tend not to use sizing like this.

My only reluctance is that the sort of player who doesn't bluff here also tends not to have the wherewithal to bet this large with a full house. Still, I think I'd fold. I don't think you make a lot of money bluff-catching against large bets deep in donkaments.

Kalculater
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March 24, 2015 - 6:54 pm
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@Foucault: What sort of bet sizing do you expect from villain with Jx? What sort of bet-sizing would you recommend we take in this spot with Jx, so as to exploit Mr Moon's calling range keeping it widest possible?

I don't particularly think a 200k gtd on Bovada is a donkament either. This is the maximum end of my buyin range however.

Foucault

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March 24, 2015 - 7:51 pm
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Kalculater said:

@Foucault: What sort of bet sizing do you expect from villain with Jx? What sort of bet-sizing would you recommend we take in this spot with Jx, so as to exploit Mr Moon's calling range keeping it widest possible?

I don't particularly think a 200k gtd on Bovada is a donkament either. This is the maximum end of my buyin range however.

The smaller you bet, the more hands he should call with. Because your Jx loses to QQ/KK/AA, you need to keep quite a few weaker hands in his range to make value betting profitable. Even getting called by all combos of TT/99/77 only causes you to break-even on the bet. So really you need bet small enough that Villain calls consistently with 66 or AK.

Kalculater
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March 24, 2015 - 8:04 pm
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@Foucault: Thanks for your response, that was really helpful.

PokerGoals
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March 26, 2015 - 1:13 pm
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Sigh fold no flush draw on flop. Only really beat OOP floats. And, people who are good enough to OOP float wont bet this size on the river. His sizing is LOL bigg like i wanna get paidddd. Agree with pretty much everything Foucalt said and hes spot onIMO.

ltcolumbo
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March 26, 2015 - 3:17 pm
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As played, my read would be the pot size bomb on the river is to avoid a chop144/19 and he has Ax.  The effective stack started at 30 BB and you each have 21 left.  If he does have Ax, this is a good leverage move as you can fold and still have 20, but if you call villain expects to split.  So YES, QQ is at the top of the bluff catching range. 

I do like betting turn if I was deeper, as I still expect to be betting for value with a premium pair, but it opens hero up to a possible check/raise bluff from Ax repping a BB type hand with an 8 or a 4.  In this case, I am on the fence.  (Although Andrew laid this to rest with Bet being the better choice.   I dont agree that he bombs here only with non-bluffs.  )

Foucault

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March 26, 2015 - 10:11 pm
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ltcolumbo said:

As played, my read would be the pot size bomb on the river is to avoid a chop144/19 and he has Ax.  The effective stack started at 30 BB and you each have 21 left.  If he does have Ax, this is a good leverage move as you can fold and still have 20, but if you call villain expects to split.  So YES, QQ is at the top of the bluff catching range. 

That's an awfully specific, and optimistic, read.

ltcolumbo
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March 27, 2015 - 1:53 pm
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I dont know that its optimistic as we know he is either nutted or bluffing, but I agree is awfully specific.  I am certainly less than confident (as intimated).   I am just speculating that if it is a bluff, I really like it as it puts hero is an awful spot. 

 

The question of “if betting the turn creates a clearer picture on the river” still lingers, although we did agree that the bet itself is +EV.  I woud think that if we bet turn and he calls, then leads river that I would be more likely to fold than “as played” where I am leaning towards a call.

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