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July 20, 2012
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This hand is from a live 888 event, BI is $800 with 34 entrants, we just moved to FT. There are 8 left and 4 are paid. I am cl with about 90bbs, avg is 35bbs. I have played with most people from the FT and there is only 1 player left who I consider in any way competent, who is sitting to my direct left (utg in this hand). The other players are all online qualifiers I am pretty sure and I think most are desperate to make the money here.
In this hand I will be 3rd in chips if I make the call and lose the hand, if I call and win then I will have a 2 to 1 chip advantage. The guy moved all in really fast and didn't respond when I tried to talk to him.
antes 200, blinds 1,200/2,400
hero is dealt Q
6
folds to sb, sb raises to 6,100, hero raises to 11,200, sb calls
Flop Q
104
Pot: 25,600
sb checks, hero bets 9,200, sb raises to 51,000 and is all in, hero ???
June 3, 2012
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Don't really like the 3bet pre with this hand, it doesn't flop well, we should be getting 4bet a decent amount coming from a 25bb stack, and post just puts us in a lot of awkward spots postflop when we catch a piece. If the field is soft as you say it is, you don't need to take spots like this. It's not a terrible play to put pressure on the smaller stacks though, and he should be shoving or folding.
As for the flop, you really want to have a plan before you make a bet. This depends on how the villain is playing/your reads. Your options imo (not in order of preference):
1 – bet/call – betting for value
2 – bet/fold – turning our hand into a bluff
3 – check back for pot control
I would personally choose to check and see what he does on turns, as we won't have much of his shoving range beat (and some of the stuff we do beat has a lot of equity). Probably calling most turns and evaluating river. Betting the flop puts us in weird spots unless we expect the villain to be ripping any piece and are doing so to induce him to spaz. Key point being here: have a plan for your flop play before you make one, and that will help eliminate a good amount of these “oh damn what do I do now?” spots.
July 20, 2012
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thanks for the reply Julius. In terms of having a plan I agree, I'm not sure that I honestly thought through what I was going to do to his jam there but I made the decision here reasonably fast at the time – the reason I am posting the hand now because I've had mixed responses when mentioning the hand. In particular I was wanting to ask about:
– flat or 3bet pre to apply pressure on a scared stack?
– cbet flop or not as played pre?
– call jam or fold?
July 7, 2012
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As played I think you have to fold unless this player has proved to be a spaz earlier in the tournement as your really only beating AT, KT, JT. He could have a dominating Q, trapping with AA KK, KJ, some kind of combo str8 and flush draw, none of which your doing well against.
As Julius says I think you played yourself into a really tough spot here.
Did he have any bet sizing tells? and had you seen him raising a lot from SB previously? had he been particularly aggressive in the blinds before?
I think just calling pre and checking back flop would have been a better line. He'll probably lead into you with worse hands eg any T, some pairs, some draws that are semi bluffing. At this point on turn, if you wanted to find out where you are at you can reraise or just call down.
This seems like a passive line when your trying to put pressure on but regardless of the outcome of this particular hand you have shown to him that your BB is not an easy source of chips.
June 14, 2012
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Pre – Depending on dynamics and such, both a fold and a 3bet pre are fine. If I 3bet, it is obviously as a bluff and would definitely make it a little bigger. I just feel with this sizing he is gonna peel with most of his 2.5xing range and Q6o doesn't flop nearly well enough for this to be profitable. Although he might just check/fold most flops, so it still technically might be profitable, but if you make it a little bigger you might be able to take it down pre atleast SOME percentage of the time.
Flop – Once we flop top pair, I'm checking back here for a couple different reasons. 1) Disguises our hand. Our kicker most likely won't play by the river and we want him to go broke with his Tx's 2) We won't get 3 streets of value from worse too often 3) With stack sizes, we don't even need to worry about 3 streets, as we only have 2 bets until the money gets in. So whether or not it's on the flop doesn't matter.
As played, bet/fold seems awful, but I really doubt we're ahead. Might actually still have to be a call with KJ,J9,spades,Tx all being in his range. If I bet this flop it's with the intention of calling/getting it in.
June 2, 2012
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runningouts said:
This hand is from a live 888 event, BI is $800 with 34 entrants, we just moved to FT. There are 8 left and 4 are paid. I am cl with about 90bbs, avg is 35bbs. I have played with most people from the FT and there is only 1 player left who I consider in any way competent, who is sitting to my direct left (utg in this hand). The other players are all online qualifiers I am pretty sure and I think most are desperate to make the money here.
In this hand I will be 3rd in chips if I make the call and lose the hand, if I call and win then I will have a 2 to 1 chip advantage. The guy moved all in really fast and didn't respond when I tried to talk to him.
antes 200, blinds 1,200/2,400
hero is dealt Q
folds to sb, sb raises to 6,100, hero raises to 11,200, sb calls
Flop Q
Pot: 25,600
sb checks, hero bets 9,200, sb raises to 51,000 and is all in, hero ???
Nokaman said:
Pre – Depending on dynamics and such, both a fold and a 3bet pre are fine. If I 3bet, it is obviously as a bluff and would definitely make it a little bigger. I just feel with this sizing he is gonna peel with most of his 2.5xing range and Q6o doesn't flop nearly well enough for this to be profitable. Although he might just check/fold most flops, so it still technically might be profitable, but if you make it a little bigger you might be able to take it down pre atleast SOME percentage of the time.
Flop – Once we flop top pair, I'm checking back here for a couple different reasons. 1) Disguises our hand. Our kicker most likely won't play by the river and we want him to go broke with his Tx's 2) We won't get 3 streets of value from worse too often 3) With stack sizes, we don't even need to worry about 3 streets, as we only have 2 bets until the money gets in. So whether or not it's on the flop doesn't matter.
As played, bet/fold seems awful, but I really doubt we're ahead. Might actually still have to be a call with KJ,J9,spades,Tx all being in his range. If I bet this flop it's with the intention of calling/getting it in.
Took the words right out of my mouth. +1.
June 3, 2012
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If it's between 3betting and flatting I prefer the 3bet to put pressure on him, but I'm more inclined to just let him have this one. I'm by no means nitty defending BvB, but I would at least like to have some sort of postflop value if I'm going to be flatting. If you are going to 3bet, I would probably make it a little bigger (13-14k).
As for the flop, I like checking for reasons I stated earlier, plus all the reasons Nokaman said in his post.
May 30, 2012
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given you stated that he plays fit/fold postflop and wont cbet most of his air, i really think this is a flat pre.
you can bet whenever checked to and take it down a ton, and just fold when he cbets unless you hit a decent piece of it.
when you 3bet you put in an amount of chips that the SB will really have a hard time folding. i do think bet/call 100000% better than bet/fold given stack sizes and the bubble approaching.
betting flop 100% since he will probably flat with alot of crap we beat, honestly with our current stack depth i think checking back is horrible given we 3bet pre, we would be cbetting close to all of our air and noone ever believes us.
I dont like checking as alot of fishy live hands that want to see two streets will give up when they brick the turn.
Also given reads he can be jamming on us with worse as either a failed trap, or a bluff after whiffing the flop.
May 30, 2012
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also am i reading stacks wrong or are we like 22bb eff, there is no need to worry that we wont get 3 streets of value from worse
August 13, 2012
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i agree with nokaman 100% ,i think ur 3b is fine( not like julius sad about 3b with q6 that doesnt flop well,i dont think its the right thinkin for 3b ranges:) i check back the flop 100% times
July 20, 2012
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I agree that folding pre is OK, though at this stage I think I can put so much pressure on this guy and agree with Duggs that the best way to do that is to flat pre and make a move post flop.
A lot of the responses were to check back flop having 3bet pre. I can understand wanting to pot control here but totally disagree that is 'disguises the hand', I think it makes our hand totally transparent, that we were probably light preflop and now have some showdown value.
Given that we have top pair, there aren't many hands he is beating us with, I would imagine AA and KK would 4bet pre and from most players so would AQ+. There are still some Qs in his range that we are losing to of course but when he jams thereI doubt it's a big queen, so to me it looks like a draw, medium Q (still ahead of us of course) or misplayed value hand. If he is a rational player then I think that when he does have Qx there he is going to flat the cbet most of the time to get more value out the hand, counter to that is that he is probably scared money and could well jam top pair.
As played I cbet the flop planning to call his jam and I did, he turned over AKo but got there on the river.
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