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April 26, 2013
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This is from a 50€ turbo with ~1,8k on top. We are 40 left of 191, 27 paid, I am 3rd in chips, villain is 1st.
I have an M of ~10,5 villain’s M is ~12.
I know I messed this one up, obv it’s a cooler to run into 88 here, but still I think with A6 this play isn’t +cEV, especially not +$EV given stack sizes and near bubble situation.
The reason I played this way is basically: Villain is a very good reg, capable of betting any two vs my limp and raising any broadway, 98s, Ax, Kx hand vs a raise. Given stack sizes I feel I have to fold too often against weaker hands, that’s where my reasoning for the play came from.
I feel my play would be ok/good if:
– stacks where about 20k lower
– I had A8o, 66, KQo+
What do you guys think? Any advice on how to play a weak ace BvB is much appreciated. Thanks.
TPE Pro
December 6, 2012
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Pretty much agree with your analysis of what would make this play good. I think you’re playing a little fast and loose with your assumptions about Villain. Just because he will raise aggressively vs a limp doesn’t mean he will raise any two (and if he really will, then you’ve got a lot of incentive to limp strong against him and in fact should never open raise, why would you if he’s going to put in a bunch more money essentially blind?). Likewise he probably isn’t three-betting as wide as you assume, many of those hands will not play well as 3bets because they don’t want to get 4-bet, T9s for instance.
Basically what you have is a hand with poor post-flop playability, poor hot-and-cold equity vs Villain’s get-in range, but a good blocker to his call/3-bet ranges. When you look at it that way, it’s pretty easy to see that this will play best as a raise-fold. I realize you’re probably worried about V calling you, and that will lead to some tough spots for you, but this a lesser of evils situation. Obviously the line you ended up taking had its own disadvantages 😉
April 26, 2013
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Thank you foucault. So playing abc, even if we expect him to 3bet wide with Kx, Qx and some weak Ax and bluffs should be better?
What do you think is the threshold (of our handstrength) for the play I made? Given stack sizes, should we better limp-reraise with a range we call any shove instead of limp-shove as I did? Or just raise and call-shove/4bet-shove with a strong range? Any 4bet small-folds here? Or 4bet-small-get-it-in hands?
What is your general getting it in range here?
____________________________________________________________________
I try to make my own assumptions and would like to hear if you think my assigned ranges are good, given the fact villain is a very profitable but aggressive reg. I don’t really have info that he spews often, so I guess we can include only very few bluff-AI hands.
His raise-calling range from BB could be something like: any suited hands, but only half the combos of 72s, 82s, 92s, T2s and J2s, 83s, 93s, T3s,J3s, 94s, T4s, J4s and without KJs+ and A5s and A7s+ as he would reraises these. Unsuited I’ll include all connectors and I 1-gappers, from 54o to KJo. He’ll also flat half of his AA and KK hands. That’s a 34% calling range.
His raise-3bet range should be something like this: any pair from 22 – QQ, half of AA and KK, any unsuited A hand, A5s, A7s+, KJs+. We will also add all K2o+ hands and Q5o-QJo an J8o, T7o. Thats an amazing 37.5% range.
So he folds a little less than 29% of the time to our SB raise.
If we shove vs his 3bet, his calling range could look like this: A8o+, KQo+, 66+, A7s+, KJs+ (seems legit?) = 12,2%.
Against his calling range, if we shove with A6o we have 30,6% equity. Whereas A8 gives us 33,8%, which seems to be the borderline shoving hand. Interestingly enough, even 22 has 40,3%! So any pair should get it in, as his calling-range consists of so many Ax hands. Even KJo has 37,3% I and KTs 39,5% and QJs 40,5%, JTs and QTs are around 40%, too!
So I believe we can shove against his raise with 22+, KJo+, Q9s+, A8o+, A7s+ (18,5%). It still seems too nitty, as we get an amazing 47,4% against his range.
What do you think about the ranges I just wrote? Any major flaws?
I feel like it is time to buy a program like flop-zilla, since using a calculator and PokerStove is quite some effort as soon as i want to include stacksizes in the calculation.
So here an other question: What program do you guys (or you especially Andrew) recommend to make these calculations.
Thanks for your time.
TPE Pro
December 6, 2012
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Sen,
It would help if you were more careful with the terminology you use. I think when you say “raise-calling” you just mean his range for calling a raise? I would usually expect raise-calling to mean 3-betting and calling a 4-bet shove (as opposed to raise-folding).
It shouldn’t be a surprise that any pair is a shove, pairs are very resilient against wide ranges because only better pairs dominate them. I still think you’re giving V far too wide a 3-bet range, you seem to think he is going to 3bet-fold KJo, which would be a ridiculous way to play that hand. Even K7o would be a pretty bad 3bet-fold, as it should play better as a call.
I do think your jamming range looks reasonable, though it should be wider if you really think he’s 3betting as many hands as you say (I doubt it). Have you assessed how frequently he folds to a shove given your assumptions?
If you’re going to jam 4bet-jam 12% or so, you need an opening range of 25-30% to make Villain indifferent to 3bet-folding, assuming he’ll risk somewhat more than the pot to make this 3bet. These hands should be chosen for their blocker value and for their ability to play postflop when called.
April 26, 2013
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Hi Andrew,
yeah I guess I messed up some of the terminology, sorry.
February 20, 2015
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Great thread. Let me make a few comments and see what you all think.
You’re 3/40 with an M less than 11. That’s a shallow tournament! As a result, you do need to loosen up relative to most tournaments in which you’d be 3/40. But how much? That’s key. The limp trap may be better served for a tighter range. Are you saying A6 is the low end of your limping range?
I like Foucault’s comment about the ace blocker. I struggle with BvB play, and this thread has been super-helpful for me.
September 1, 2012
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I know weak aces are awkward BVB when you have these stack sizes. The way you played this hand though is you leveled yourself and then punted off 30bbs, all because you had a weak ace bvb and did not want to get out played. Just don’t be scared to sometimes raise/fold even blind vs blind with this stack, or even limp-fold. You can just move on to the next hand.
I like this play better with 20bbs. I don’t think you don’t need to do this with 30bb, its just not that much % increase to your stack for what you’re risking and worse hands never call except probably KQs.
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