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Big162 - BTN vs SB,BB 17BB eff. generating preflop ranges.
florianm1
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April 3, 2014 - 8:31 pm
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hand nr. 2 from the big162

 

here about preflop ranges

SB: 21/15 12% 3bet (110hands total)

BB 18/10 8% 3bet (33hands at this table)

hero: 12/9 on the 33hands we ve been at the table

 

Poker Stars $150+$12 No Limit Hold'em Tournament – t200/t400 Blinds + t50 – 9 players – View hand 2466245
TournamentPokerEdge.com Hand History Converter

Phungtt (UTG): BB = 10.5, t4213
Keiruja (UTG+1): BB = 24.0, t9585
km_freestyle (UTG+2): BB = 24.1, t9658
CURUCHOS (MP1): BB = 28.5, t11390
hello_totti (MP2): BB = 55.2, t22080
Taska85 (CO): BB = 12.8, t5135
Hero (BTN): BB = 46.5, t18601
Bianconero12 (SB): BB = 17.4, t6970
yourgen_99 (BB): BB = 16.3, t6503

Pre Flop: (t1050) Hero is BTN with T of spades A of spades
6 folds, Hero raises to ???

 

1.) ranges?

     a) r/c range?

     i say is r/c here AA-77,AKo-A7o,AKs-A2s,KQs
 

     b)r/f range?

    none existing

    c)shoving range?

   everything else that should be nash optimal

OneTime1Time
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April 4, 2014 - 1:18 am
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I think you have to have a r/f range here. Otherwise you probably aren't opening your button wide enough from a stealing perspective. I open a polarized range off the BTN in these spots, so that the next decision is easy. It's rare that a stack size such as theirs will flat us OOP. 

That puts hands like Q2-Q8, J2-J8, T2-T7 in the R/F range. Probably just open folding the bottom end of the spectrum, unless they never defend their blinds. 

pckrrr
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April 4, 2014 - 6:02 am
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a) These are so lazy questions ( I assume how you know how to do your math ). Just assign a reshove range for villain(s) and calculate your equity and EV vs this range. Afterwards you compare the EV of r/c with Shoving and you're done.

 

b) If you have a r/c range you def should have a r/f range. 

c) true

florianm1
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April 4, 2014 - 8:20 am
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pckrrr said:

a) These are so lazy questions ( I assume how you know how to do your math ). Just assign a reshove range for villain(s) and calculate your equity and EV vs this range. Afterwards you compare the EV of r/c with Shoving and you're done.

1. i know the math very well and have done about 50 spreadsheets with all different situations

its more to back up my thinking and get input

2. its also a post to help less advanced players to think about these situation and to show them how to break up these things. as recently there was a post from someone asking how to create those ranges 

b) If you have a r/c range you def should have a r/f range. 

yes true, and i guess i have r/f range here too. prob did not think long enought when posting

c) true

CCuster 911
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April 4, 2014 - 7:28 pm
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Not with this hand, but this situation in gerneal is a great spot to limp.  I probably limp hands like A5s, 89s, KTo, basically all hands in the middle of our general opening range here.  I would r/f the bottom, and r/c the top(like AT).  People cant play veruss limps, and you can still call a decent portion of your limping range.

 

I know not what you asked, but as I read the HH its the first thing I thought of.

 

Off the top of my head I am opening something like 50% and calling something like 18-20%  Thats av ery rough quick-estimate.

 

I am never shoving here.  But thats me.  I play a style where  raise when short over shoving and raise into shorties over shoving.

For Coaching - ccuster911@gmail.com - HH Reviews/Leak Finder(HEM or PT)/Concept Discussion

theginger45

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April 7, 2014 - 6:13 pm
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I think it's a huge error not to have a raise/folding range here. When you consider that a minraise has to work about 48% of the time preflop in order to be profitable if we have no cards, that means that even if the blinds are shoving 25% and 35% respectively (which they're almost certainly not), we can raise/fold AA or 72o here if we want and be roughly breakeven.

If we want to be able to raise/call our strong hands we should absolutely have a raise/fold range. If you think the blinds are never flatting it doesn't really matter what you open with at all, so anything with any kind of blocker value is probably fine to raise. Their shoving frequencies depend a lot on your image at the table so obviously you can't just open here every time, but the tighter your image is, the wider your r/f range should be.

I'd also be shoving those hands which weren't especially profitable to raise/call or raise/fold, like 22-44, A2s-A6s, 98s+ or JTo+, but were still profitable to shove. I think raise/calling a hand like A2s but not 66 would be a big error. My raise/call range is around 55+, A7s+ A8o+, KJs+ KQo.

markconkle
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April 7, 2014 - 9:31 pm
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I know some people are confused by spot like this when they say 

 

 c)shoving range?

   everything else that should be nash optimal

 

I don't know if you are or not, but a lot of people will just look at a Nash chart, raise the best hands small and shove the rest.  This is no longer Nash optimal, and in fact is super-exploitable.  Because your shoving range is much weaker, your opponents can call far more often and you will be losing money with a lot of your shoves.  If you are going to have a raising range, make sure you are separately figuring out that the range of just your shoves is calculated against his correct calling range vs. just your shoves.  I haven't done a lot of examples, but I'll do this one (again, not sure if you're making this mistake, but many do).

 

If you shove 

 44-22,A6s-A2s,KJs-K5s,Q8s+,J7s+,T7s+,97s+,86s+,76s,65s,A7o-A2o,KTo+,QTo+,JTo,T9o

Big blind can call with 22+,Ax,K3s+,K7o+,Q8s+,Q9o+,J9s+,JTo,T9s

which is 34% of hands.  Our worst hands have about 37% against this range.  

For simplicity lets first assume the small blind is sitting out, and we shove T9o.  When we are called, our equity is (14456*.37)-6903 = -1554.  When we are not called we win 1050.  This results in a total of .66*1050 – .34*1554 = 164.64.  

 

That's if the small blind always folds!  I don't have time right now to calculate small blinds optimal calling range, but it will certainly be wide enough to make shoving T9o unprofitable.

florianm1
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April 8, 2014 - 8:54 am
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markconkle said:

I know some people are confused by spot like this when they say 

 

 c)shoving range?

   everything else that should be nash optimal

 

I don't know if you are or not, but a lot of people will just look at a Nash chart, raise the best hands small and shove the rest.  This is no longer Nash optimal, and in fact is super-exploitable.  Because your shoving range is much weaker, your opponents can call far more often and you will be losing money with a lot of your shoves.  If you are going to have a raising range, make sure you are separately figuring out that the range of just your shoves is calculated against his correct calling range vs. just your shoves.  I haven't done a lot of examples, but I'll do this one (again, not sure if you're making this mistake, but many do).

 

Good point. I did not lots of calculations on that but i am normally also balancing my r/c and shoving ranges out.

 

If you shove 

 44-22,A6s-A2s,KJs-K5s,Q8s+,J7s+,T7s+,97s+,86s+,76s,65s,A7o-A2o,KTo+,QTo+,JTo,T9o

Big blind can call with 22+,Ax,K3s+,K7o+,Q8s+,Q9o+,J9s+,JTo,T9s

which is 34% of hands.  Our worst hands have about 37% against this range.  

For simplicity lets first assume the small blind is sitting out, and we shove T9o.  When we are called, our equity is (14456*.37)-6903 = -1554.  When we are not called we win 1050.  This results in a total of .66*1050 – .34*1554 = 164.64.  

 

That's if the small blind always folds!  I don't have time right now to calculate small blinds optimal calling range, but it will certainly be wide enough to make shoving T9o unprofitable.

florianm1
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April 8, 2014 - 8:58 am
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Thanks for the nice posts.

 

In the actual hand i shoved ATs.

 

I decided to shove in game for several reasons.

 

1.) two regs in the blinds

2.) they know that a lot of people are r/c strong hands here and are shoving weaker hands so therefore a shove looks weaker

3.) i want my shoving range to be balanced with good hands and i believe that ATs is the very top of my BTN opening range in these kind of spots

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