Great points lainie, Im curious to hear the pros comments on this.  I would say over half of my tourneys late w/antes people are still 3x and based on the structure of the game and how no one is really that deep (in the micro stuff due to starting stack sizes)  3betting light just isnt a viable option.

RonFezBuddy said:

If stacks are this short couldn't you 3-bet all in with a hand that has relative strength against their most likely light ranges (because that's who you should be 3 betting anyway)?

Few things:

1.  This is valid, as it assumes that we will artificially turn 25-30 BB stacks into 15-25 BB stacks and play them accordingly.  If people are making inordinately large raises, it effectively causes us to adjust and our play as if we were not as deep as we are.

2.  Does this effectively eliminate bluffs from our 3 bet range and only 3 bet-shove or, if closer to 25-30 bigs, only 3 bet if we are willing to stack?

lainie1072 said:

 

What does one do when every stack at the table basically leaves me no fold equity when I 3-bet, not because of small stacks, but because open raise sizes build the pot in such a way?

It leaves you no fold equity in the way a good player thinks…..not in the way everyone thinks.  Don't mistake the way you think with the way everyone thinks.

I have seen players 3x on  9bb stack and then fold to a ship.  I have seen guys 4x and then fold to a 12bb reship.  I have seen players that 4x never ever fold….but 4x with a wide range.

Structures in these tourneys suck when you are deep very often so it does not allow for alot of play.  When most are below 30bb and everyone is 3xing you are right you can't really 3 bet and then fold.  You can however overshove if you know your opponents tendencies. 

I would say really try to pay attention to what guys are opening with and what sizes they are doing it with.  Your best bet when short is to look for spot to 3 bet or reshove all in before the flop. 

My best advice though is to not assume that all of these players know “the rules” that we know.  It is often shocking of what they are capable of and they don't think the way you and I think.

You are right you can't 3 bet and then fold to a guy who 3xes on a 25bb stack….but you certainly can ship it in if you know he is light and capable of folding.

This is a good post. Heres what Im getting from the original post. That your getting to a point where you are giving away to much equity and or commiting yourself to a pot because of other players stacks when 3 betting. For what its worth I play tournys like this all the time. They are called turbo's. 3 betting is almost completely illiminated from my play in say the stars 109 turbo because even if there is say 20 people left nobody really has more then 30 bigs so if you 3 bet your effectively comminting yourself to pots. Here is my plan of attack at this type of table dynamic. 1 if I 3 bet ill do it for all my chips obviously. So paying attention to who is opening light is paramount. So 3 bet shoving is not that spewy if someone is opening alot of pots. 2 be the first aggressor. Take your spots to open because people at the table are probrably in the same mind set as you right now and are not 3 betting that light. Just on another note if people are 3xin or 4xing up to 6xing. I think there is more to exploit there then the standard 2.5x. You just have to find a comfort zone and pick spots properly. I guarantee you that if people are 3 and 4xing a vast majority of pots they are not all calling 3 bet shoves. So there is a opportunity if you pick your spots right to pick up signifigant amounts of chips with well timed 3 bet shoves. I hope this helped a little.

Bigdog

yeah, really sold post bigdog. pretty much exactly what i was going to say.