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November 4, 2013
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Good morning TPE,
The situation is a 2 dollar turbo 6-max MTT, 80 enrolled 12 paid, 6 remaining, 1st taking $45
We're at the final table and I've posted 2 hands with the villain Birdman (probably not killingbird!) who is playing loose passive after n=76, VPIP 37, PFR 3%, limp 44, 3bet 0%, C-bet 100 (but n=1 for that), steal 6%, fold to steal 85. His flop bets are often large sizes, once already he had bet 12k to take down a pot of 7.5k. Seems to be calling a lot of preflop raises. I kind of want to put that stat up.
Hand 1)
Merge Network $100 Gtd – [6-Max, Turbo] No Limit Hold'em Tournament – t1500.00/t3000.00 Blinds + t300.00 – 6 players – View hand 2353553
TournamentPokerEdge.com Hand History Converter
RANYO9 (SB): BB = 9.1, t27340
Hero (BB): BB = 16.1, t48430
Hudson65 (UTG): BB = 14.6, t43808
inuit77 (MP): BB = 20.9, t62551
Birdman1965 (CO): BB = 16.5, t49455
druidshampoo1 (BTN): BB = 2.8, t8416
Pre Flop: (t6300) Hero is BB with A
6
2 folds, Birdman1965 calls t3000, 2 folds, Hero checks
I wanted to see this flop because I don't feel like flipping or going nuts preflop against this call station. Also it seemed to be getting a little late for limping, and while his preflop limp range is wide, it certainly does include any A2-AK and I smell a hand decent enough to give A6 trouble. Should I have protected my blind and taken a stab?
Flop: (t9300) 3
A 5
(2 players)
Sure I have top pair, but now any ace except A2 and A4 has me, and I feel like I'm just doing ok. I decide to try to keep the pot small by checking and calling most bets. Sure enough, though:
Hero checks, Birdman1965 bets t12000.00, Hero folds.
Too big, I figure. This was the kind of bet I told myself I'd fold to, so I did. This situation that looked very dangerous to me ended up just costing me just one big blind. Moving on ..
Hand 2)
5 hands later, the small stack druidshampoo has only two bets, one of which is the big blind.
Merge Network $100 Gtd – [6-Max, Turbo] No Limit Hold'em Tournament – t1750.00/t3500.00 Blinds + t350.00 – 6 players – View hand 2353322
TournamentPokerEdge.com Hand History Converter
RANYO9 (UTG): BB = 7.0, t24540
Hero (MP): BB = 12.2, t42630
Hudson65 (CO): BB = 8.1, t28308
inuit77 (BTN): BB = 21.1, t73851
Birdman1965 (SB): BB = 18.2, t63555
druidshampoo1 (BB): BB = 2.0, t7116
Pre Flop: (t7350) Hero is MP with A 9
My hand is strong and I can conveniently bet a normal low 2.X to put him all in, hopefully discouraging calls from other players.
1 fold, Hero raises to t7600.00, 2 folds, Birdman1965 calls t5850, druidshampoo1 calls t3266 all in
Flop: (t24066) 9
Q 3 (3 players – 1 is all in)
Birdman's range is wide here, and I have no reason to suspect a pair of queens. He will play 22-TT this way, as well as A2o-AQo, A2s-AJs, probably any broadway and many suited kings, connectors+suited gappers. Of course he could have the queen, but I'm not convinced.
Birdman1965 bets t21000.00,
This doesn't really change much about his range* because he has been flop betting large, often the full pot or more (*EDIT – at the time I don't think I accounted for his n=1 for Cbet =100% and considered him too wide, this probably does actually indicate a pair or diamond draw and eliminate some non-
gappers and connectors) . . I would probably have been more suspicious of a check or min bet though.
I am wondering if this was a bad time to go all in even though I think I'm ahead because, well, we are doing fine, we are 3rd place vs 2nd place, we only have a pair and he's doing his hyper aggro on the flop thing. Is this not a strong enough situation to go with?
Hero raises to t34680 all in, Birdman1965 calls t13680
Ok to ship on this flop?
Also, should I have opted to shove preflop instead of getting into any of this? He probably would have folded, but he may actually have been calling wide enough that I didn't consider it a gimme. As 3rd place vs. 2nd place place with the BB so small, I figured he was somewhat likely to call shoves and that I could make this small bet, easily folding to any strange moves on his part preflop.
Thank you for reading. Good grinding to all.
November 7, 2013
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You should shove pre if you are going with the hand..you have 12 BB to start and are gonna get into awkward situations a lot if you give sb odds to call oop.
January 15, 2013
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Both hands an easy ship pre, imo
November 4, 2013
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Thank you both! I will make a note of this.
It seems I keep learning and relearning the idea that we must be willing to repeatedly shove, without being too concerned about the possibility of someone trapping with premiums or the possibility of someone calling with a weak hand that wins against us and busts us 45% of the time.
November 7, 2013
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Exactly, fortune favors the bold
TPE Pro
August 25, 2012
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Both hands would be massively profitable as preflop shoves. That's what I'd do.
To comment on your general logic, I like that you're thinking in detail but there are a lot of gaps. You make some reasonable assumptions about ranges, but then mix it in with things like “I'm not convinced”, or “I'm doing okay”, or “the situation looked dangerous”. These kinds of descriptions and terminology are ultimately meaningless and are making it harder for you to make a decision.
Try to frame your thinking in terms of whether you're ahead or behind the villain's range, what your equity is in the hand, or how profitabe each specific play is. You don't need to be convinced about your decisions – in fact, it's good not to be – you don't need to reassure yourself you're doing okay, and there's no danger in poker. The worst thing that can happen is you bust the tournament and register another one, which is going to happen more than 80% of the tournaments you play. Just focus on making the right plays.
Hope that helps!
November 4, 2013
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That helps a lot ginger, thank you 🙂 Yeah I can see how those phrases are not so helpful in decision making.
It's great to figure out which ideas I had about poker that were right, which ones were almost right but in need of tweaks and which ones were in need of overhauls. I'm re-learning concepts that I thought I already learned (like not to fear busting), but realized I actually don't truly understand. Of course once I re-learn, it's soon likely I'll re-re-learn the concept and decide that even when I re-learned it I didn't truly understand it.
Excited to continue today with the videos from TPE University step 1.
May 23, 2013
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Shove both pre.
I think one thing you should consider is to not be raising < 18bb stacks with decent hands. If there is an open and you have a value hand, reshove all in. If there are limps and it gets to you with a decent hand and 15bb just pile. If you are in late position and have a decent hand with 15bbs just open shove. You'll remove a lot of the guess work on the flop and pick up a lot of pots uncontested where math wise you are going to take it down without showdown. One you get used to this open shove / reshove concept you are going to find that you'd rather maintain a 20-25bb stack as a reshove tool then to be opening a 20bb stack, cbetting and then leaving yourself with 15bb that does not have much fold equity and will be close to 10-11bb once the blinds go around. It take a lot of practice and is going to feel awkward, you are going to find yourself saying, should I really be open shoving 15bb with ATo from the co, this doesn't feel right reshoving JTs from the bb…. but when you start to get those folds and the chips come your way you'll see what it does for your game.
Nearly every video on the site is going to show this concept, although the instructor may not point it out, just watch the stack sizes and see what they are open shoving and reshoving. One other thing to keep in mind is the dead money in these limped pots or min open pots with a few callers, even if you shove and get called there is close to enough chips in the pot to make up for the times that you are dominated, plus you have the added benefit of getting folds some percentage of the time. Some times they'll be folding better!
Last thing, once you practice this a bunch and get snapped off and busted in some silly spots you'll grow immune to the idea “what if they wake up with a hand”. Throw in there some times when you suck out and you'll find it quite fun 🙂
Gl man!
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