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December 24, 2013
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We're really deep. This is the early stages of either the $2 3k or the $22 25k on WPN. You start with 10k and it's like 4-5 hours of re-entry. I try to enter once or twice, only, to discipline myself. Preflop, we can do a lot of things. Anything but folding would be good here, I'm guessing. Villains are unknowns. My 3bet sizing is intentionally small as:
1) it saves me chips and gives me room if there's a 4b
2) it theoretically allows for more calls, allowing me to set up 1-2-3 street barrels against a capped range.
9 handed. 25/50
utg opens to 150
btn calls 150
sb folds
hero 3b to 445
utg folds btn calls.
flop (1125) As Ah Qc
hero bets 445. btn raises to 1111.
turn (3347) As Ah Qc 3d
hero checks, btn checks
river (3347) As Ah Qc 3d Qd
hero?
I think villains range for river is going to be a lot of suited connector hands that stab once at the flop, pocket pairs who raised the flop thinking it's likely they have the best hand and want to shut it down, and at best KJxx. Since there are few K high hands relative to the hands villain gets to flop with, and then gets to the river with, I THINK I might want to try inducing here. I doubt K high is going to value bet, and I doubt I'm going to get a bluff with my passive line, because in my mind, btn is thinking “I got T7hh, I try. never mind I give up” I'm thinking this river actually gives me a nut hand because villain never raises flop with a Q or an A.
December 24, 2013
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feels dumb that i never noted we have JThh
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December 6, 2012
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Why are you 3betting this hand at all? I'm not saying you shouldn't, I think it's good, but think about why you're doing it. Then we'll talk about sizing and general post-flop plan.
I agree river is a pretty clear check-call.
February 20, 2015
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I'm trying to understand how blockers affect ranges. In a hand like this, do you think it is more likely that V has pocket pairs 9s or worse because your hand blocks most broadways that would cold call the button? I'm trying to understand what types of hands raise the flop. For example, would 9s raise a flop like this? Calling on the button pre also seems to weight toward pairs or KQss or KQhh.
July 16, 2015
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I don't see him having a K in his hand I mean calling a raise and a 3Bet with KQ-KJ-K10-QJ-Q10 unless he is that type of loose-passive player. He probably just called with any pocket pair expecting to get something on the flop and try to stab the flop using position and thinking that you do not have and A or a Q , plus when you called and checked the turn he probably thought you wanted him to bet if he thinks you have it so you can either come back at him or just called so he pot controlled by checking back. If you raise the river he might re-raise putting you on a tough spot (making you losing more chip if he has it) but if you check he can either raise for value or cause he missed and want to bluff. I would check-call.
December 24, 2013
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Foucault said:
Why are you 3betting this hand at all?
I'm 3betting this sometimes for preflop balance. I'm likely to play with some or all of these people for a while. If I happen to pick up a strong hand in this spot again, I want to broadcast that I have more than just QQ+ and AK. I'll usually end up in a situation where I can make a profitable flop bet by itself. I don't know if that's flawed thinking, focusing so much on that bet. I'm not ignoring the fact that part of it is my preflop money, but I think it's right. Anyway, I can say a slew of things, but they're really coming down to preflop balance in so many words. It helps my range on a lot of turns and rivers if I have more than big pairs or big cards.
joelshitshow said:
For example, would 9s raise a flop like this? Calling on the button pre also seems to weight toward pairs or KQss or KQhh.
When I reviewed this hand last night, we kind of concluded they likely had 77-99. I used to have a thought process that lead me to raise flops with those kinds of hands, “I probably have the best hand as it's hard to hit this and he has bluffs still” kind of raise. It's an incomplete thought, like an information seeking bet or something.
It also seemed to be concluded that my preflop sizing and flop sizing look nutted. I don't know if I agree with this because I know my own range, but to an unknown, I agree. Because of that, it's safer to bet/fold the flop and take my profitable cbet. Villain shouldn't raise an Ace here really without AQ, and even then personally I'd rather wait a street anyway and just never raise the flop. However, villain can be raising an Ace. So, bet/fold to stay out of guessing games.
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December 6, 2012
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jacobsharktank said:
Foucault said:
Why are you 3betting this hand at all?
I'm 3betting this sometimes for preflop balance. I'm likely to play with some or all of these people for a while. If I happen to pick up a strong hand in this spot again, I want to broadcast that I have more than just QQ+ and AK. I'll usually end up in a situation where I can make a profitable flop bet by itself. I don't know if that's flawed thinking, focusing so much on that bet. I'm not ignoring the fact that part of it is my preflop money, but I think it's right. Anyway, I can say a slew of things, but they're really coming down to preflop balance in so many words. It helps my range on a lot of turns and rivers if I have more than big pairs or big cards.
Right. So then you should play this hand in the same way you'd play those bigger pairs and AK, starting with the pre-flop sizing. And there's just no reason any part of your range should want to use such small sizing, against which your opponents are going to make a bunch of correct pre-flop calls.
I'll also add that there's more to balance than this kind of signaling you're talking about. It doesn't matter whether you're likely to play with these players more or not. If you pop it to 750 here (the sizing I'd use), they may just say “Well he obviously has KK+” and fold. Putting JTs in your range immediately exploits those players. They don't have to see the JTs and then pay off your big pair later for this to be a good 3-bet.
September 14, 2014
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In regards to your sizing, it really does depend on your opponents tendencies. For instance if you know v is capable of r/f to small 3-bets then hey 3-betting small will be fine as playe and if you know v is likely to call 3bets often with trash then you'd want to raise bigger with your value hands.
In this situation here ,your sizing is really small espically OPP and i'd lean towards going a bit larger.
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December 6, 2012
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folding_aces_pre_yo said:
In regards to your sizing, it really does depend on your opponents tendencies. For instance if you know v is capable of r/f to small 3-bets then hey 3-betting small will be fine as playe and if you know v is likely to call 3bets often with trash then you'd want to raise bigger with your value hands.
Does this count as a value hand?
December 24, 2013
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For the squeeze spot, I want to go bigger because I don't really want to go multiways I think.
On 3bet sizing in general- I'm unsure on sizing because I think you can come up with reasons for a lot of them. While I don't think this is a value hand, I think if villain's are going to call, and fold too much on the flop turn or river, this kind of hand fits in nicely. Sizing it smaller means we get more calls with a wider range that usually misses. Cons are we're still OOP when we're called on flop or turn.
But if they're going to call for both sizings, you can go bigger to basically make more money on your flop or turn bet. Or you can go smaller to play like small ball 3b pots. If villains aren't really understanding what your range is either way (which is what I think they're usually saying if they're willing to call the same range vs two different sizings), is there something wrong with giving them either sizing, depending more on other factors in the tournament?
I think foldingaces is suggesting to exploitatively go small with bluffing hands and go bigger with value hands. That villains who are calling trash vs both sizings, use two different sizings because they won't know the difference.
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December 6, 2012
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The thing is that when you give them a good price to call the 3bet, they can afford to call and play fit-or-fold. You end up running an expensive bluff (3bet + flop bet) and making it relatively simple for them to defend against it (continue on favorable flops, folds on unfavorable ones). Just because a player folds “too much” on the flop doesn't automatically mean you want him to call a tiny 3bet.
What you said about JTs fitting nicely into the strategy is right, and at this stack depth I do almost think of it as a value hand. It's the sort of hand, like Aces, where I expect to have a lot of profitable post-flop spots even if my large 3bet is called. And to be honest, when I am OOP and this deep, I am not much happier to see my 3bet called when I have AA than when I have JTs.
I really don't see a case for using small sizing here with any hand, especially against loose opponents. If you want to play a small pot with a particular hand (TT comes to mind), just call the raise. Your 3-betting range should consist only of hands that are ready to play bloated pots.
September 14, 2014
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@VoxPopuli , you can still go small with your value hands and your bluffing range if you think V folds to small 3-bets often. If they are opening a lot and folding to 3-bets a ton , then you may go smaller.
@foucault , i never really looked at JTs as a value hand tbh , i’d consider it a semi bluffing hand , i’m not sure as to why you’d consider it a value hand , nor why anyone else would. Once you 3-bet JTs and get called , your hand does have decent equity vs villain’s calling range , but still that don’t necessarily mean our relative hand is stronger. If you’re going to 3-bet a hand like JTs you’d like to win the pot pre , but if you’re called then you still have a decent hand that flops well and there’s a lot of flops you can c-bet on and double/triple barrel , especially when this deep. Is this why you’d consider it a value hand? just a bit lost here 🙂
December 24, 2013
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folding_aces_pre_yo said:
@VoxPopuli , you can still go small with your value hands and your bluffing range if you think V folds to small 3-bets often. If they are opening a lot and folding to 3-bets a ton , then you may go smaller.
@foucault , i never really looked at JTs as a value hand tbh , i'd consider it a semi bluffing hand , i'm not sure as to why you'd consider it a value hand , nor why anyone else would. Once you 3-bet JTs and get called , your hand does have decent equity vs villain's calling range , but still that don't necessarily mean our relative hand is stronger. If you're going to 3-bet a hand like JTs you'd like to win the pot pre , but if you're called then you still have a decent hand that flops well and there's a lot of flops you can c-bet on and double/triple barrel , especially when this deep. Is this why you'd consider it a value hand? just a bit lost here 🙂
September 14, 2014
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You did a good job taking a crack at it jacob and I totally agree with what you have said. As to what i'd do with A9o if v spazzes out and 4-bets , well that would depend on what odd's we are getting on the call.
Against an opponent that has a high 4-bet % , i would not mind 3-bet/f A9o , but i'd hate to 3-bet fold JTs, so against that sorta player we should be looking to flat IP with JTs. I Just think it's important to polarize our range vs an opponent that has a high 4-betting frequency and against a opponent that folds to 3-bets. so basically 3-bet hands which we can easily let go off , do you think A9o would be a good candiate to 3-bet/f vs an opponent that 4-bets a lot? Against a opponent that folds to 3-bets a lot A9o would be a good 3-bet hand, but if we knew v calls 3-bets often i'd much rather 3-bet JTs/KJs/QTs (for value) rather then A9o , depending on stack depth of course.
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