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July 24, 2013
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PokerStars – $5+$0.50|400/800 Ante 100 NL – Holdem – 9 players
Hand converted by PokerTracker 3
MicroMillions event. I’m quite new to the table (~15 hands) and Villain 1 is very loose, limping 55% of pots and then playing very aggressively postflop. Villain 2 is also quite loose, but has minraised the majority of the pots he’s entered.
UTG: 53,151.00
UTG+1: 6,020.00
MP: 41,355.00
MP+1: 26,955.00
LP: 24,618.00
CO: 19,695.00
BTN: 78,198.00
Hero (SB): 22,014.00
BB: 31,981.00
UTG posts ante 100.00, UTG+1 posts ante 100.00, MP posts ante 100.00, MP+1 posts ante 100.00, LP posts ante 100.00, CO posts ante 100.00, BTN posts ante 100.00, Hero posts ante 100.00, BB posts ante 100.00, Hero posts SB 400.00, BB posts BB 800.00
Pre Flop: (2100.00) Hero has A
K
fold, fold, MP calls 800.00, fold, fold, fold, BTN calls 800.00, [color=red]Hero?
What’s the right bet size here and why? Is my stack to large to just shove it into 2 players here?
November 10, 2012
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Since both players limp preflop, it is not likely that they are going to call a shove? A limp of the BTN seems normal here, he doesn’t need to have a premium hand. Since both villains seem to be loose, both their ranges are probably behind. On the other hand, you are OOP so I would raise, you still have the BB behind too. I rather would not like to play this hand OOP against 3 opponents, especially one who is aggressive post flop like mentioned.
Since I think you have the best hand it would be all right to build the pot a little too. I would raise to something between 2150 and 2400. If the BB folds and you have 1 caller, the pot is around 6000. When you hit the flop good, you could get it all in on the next streets and by raising to that amount you filter the opponents.
July 20, 2012
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The issue here is that you are really unlikely to win the pot with a raise and so you will be playing a pot oop from a shallow stack. If you then miss the flop you can cbet and hope to take it down, or c/c and be a hero. When you hit you're probably only getting paid off when you share the A or K with them and outkick them, even then you may well not get their stack. So a raise is my least favourite option.
Checking seems really passive, and it obviously is, but given your read on villain 1, you can probably get value now if you hit (as we didn't take control of the pot pre), and when you miss you can fold and your stack is unaffected.
Shoving is also an option, though it looks ugly. You pick up 3600 (?) if it gets through, which is pretty valuable. It's possible you somehow come up against aces from mp or bb, but then it's also possible you get mp to fish call off AJ etc.
I'm not sure which I prefer out of shove or check, but a raise is my least favourite.
July 24, 2013
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I think a check puts you in many tough spots oop against 2 players. Villain1 isn’t such a concern, but villain2 was a goldstar if I’m not mistaken. Ok, this doesn’t mean he’s necessariliy good, but he probably not a complete fool either.
I was very close to shoving, but at the time felt 25BBs were too many to rip into the pot.
What about a go’n’go? Bet large enough to leave ~ a potsize bet behind (~6000) with the intent of shoving any flop. This has 2 purposes
- Getting villain2 to fold
- Geting value from villain1 who will fold stuff like 57o and T4s but stay in with many, many hands AK dominates like JTo, Kx, Ax etc.
I’d be prepared to shove literally any flop, since I reckon I’d have 60%+ equity against villain1’s calling range and have quite a bit of fold equity to boot.
—
Here’s how it played out:
Hero raises to 3,500.00, fold, MP calls 2,700.00, BTN calls 2,700.00
So I made it a pretty big raise — and I feel this was my first mistake –, and unfortunately, didn’t get rid of anyone. So now I’ve left myself with a very awkard SPR and didn’t achieve the objectives of the PFR. I still think I’m ahead here most of the time though, even with both villains in the pot still. However, does a shove here look bluffy? What about a committing bet of 3/4 pot? Would that look stronger?
Flop: (12200.00, 3 players) 5 9 9
If I check, villain1 will bet 100% of the time.
Maybe a check-raise is best, but I had this sudden fear that villain1 or 2 would overbet shove here, forcing me to fold.
[color=red]Hero bets 8,000.00[/color], [color=red]MP raises to 18,400.00[/color], fold, [color=red]Hero raises to 18,414.00 and is all-in[/color]
Villain had 22 and I didn’t hit or pair the board. I felt my read was pretty good, but the execution could have been better.
July 20, 2012
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“since I reckon I'd have 60%+ equity against villain1's calling range”
Assuming you miss the flop I sincerely doubt this is true. If you shove a flop when missed then when you are called you are going to be behind his range almost always imo. That's not to say a shove is necessarily horrible, though in this case I think the go/go line is unecessary. Essentially you are getting into a big pot with someone who seems to be a station, this isn't a good idea with A high on the flop.
When you raise preflop it isn't really to get rid of players (unless you shove) because it's not going to happen here, we know villain 1 will call and then villain 2 is priced in. So I disagree with this:
“So I made it a pretty big raise — and I feel this was my first mistake”, the sizing doesn't matter much other than you are now playing a bigger pot oop with A high than you need be. This is pretty much the spot I would try to avoid by checking or shoving pre.
I agree that you are still ahead a lot on that flop but if your read is that villain 1 is going to bet when checked to, and given that if you are to cbet then you are calling off, there is no real sense in you cbetting here. You may as well let villain bet, give yourself a chance to fold to a button flat/raise, and if button folds you can now shove over villain 1, or even call off if he shoves. I'm not sure I made that clear, but I'll try again. If you have decided to stack off with villain 1 by cbet/calling, then you are better off by check/shoving because that way you play against a wider range from him, especially as this player is going with any pair anyway.
January 15, 2013
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My first thought before I read the other posters was to jam pre, and after I read the other posters my thought was the same given the reads on the two individuals. Is this a leak on my part?
July 24, 2013
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I’m sold, SMG. You’ve convinced me that checking pre- is the best option here.
What I find interesting is how nuanced this game is. My immediate thought (and even for days afterwards) was
“AK with some limpers. Must. Raise. Arrrgghhhh….”
But this situation is one of those cases where thinking a little more deeply would provide the same leverage without risking any chips (and would have kept me in the tourney possibly).
November 10, 2012
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I still think your hand was preflop too good to play it passively. A smaller raise would not have made a too big chunk in your stack. They probably both would have called too. But in the case you did hit the flop, you would have gotten it in probably and stacked a lot of chips.
Missing the flop, as it was, I would check/fold and go to the next hand.
By checking pre flop, and then hitting the flop, you would have lost value imo. I would love to build the pot a little, especially with a strong hand and with a calling station in the pot.
And there still are, even with those calling stations, spots where you could have win the pot preflop, but that also depends on your image at that table. imo.
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