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BDPO $162 6-max KO turn decision for heaps
Douggyfr3sh
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April 2, 2014 - 12:49 am
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This hand happened eariler tonight and I'm going to try to remember details as much as possible..

 

Bovada BDPO Event #46 20k GTD $50 KO 6-max blinds 250/500

 

just over 60 players left, 30 paid  We have well above average stack with about 45bb.  Villain has close to double our stack and is very deep and has been playing loose but not sure how aggressive.  No specific notes and not a ton of hands on them.

 

UTG Folds 

Hero (~23k) raises to 1000 8spade9heart

CO Folds

BTN Folds

SB (38k) Calls

BB Fold. 

 

Flop: 7heart4clubTheart (3150) 

 

Villain Checks

Hero Bets 1675 

Villain Raises to 3755

Hero Calls 

 

Turn Jheart (10,750) 

 

Villain Leads for 7k and change 

Hero tanks and shoves 18k

 

I thought forever here and decided I just didn't think Villain would bet out this size with a flush on the turn.  I think he can maybe have sets and 2 pairs here and I don't think Villain check/raises flop with a hand that turns top pair + flush draw.  I decided to shove for value here.  Thoughts??

Lovethisgame
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April 2, 2014 - 1:15 am
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Generally on bovada having few reads on opponents Im folding 9/10o UTG with 45BB even 6 handed, unless you have a good read that your table is overly tight. I think calling his flop raise is fine. When he bets again on the turn his range is mostly made of flushes, sets, pair+flush draw, J10, maybe even A10. I think by shoving on the turn you take away his opportunity to bluff on the river, and is going to call your shove with mostly hands that beat you. I think I am just calling the turn and calling most rivers except hearts and when the board pairs.

Lovethisgame
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April 2, 2014 - 1:23 am
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Oh also what I do on bovada is when I play a hand I want to review I write down the hand number right away(upper left) that way it is easy to find the hand again in the history easily. Also on bovada 24 hours after the hand was played you can view everyones hole cards since it is all anonymous. So also whenever I get to spot where I fold in a tough spot I write the hand down to see if I made the right decision.

Douggyfr3sh
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April 2, 2014 - 11:20 am
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Lovethisgame said:

Generally on bovada having few reads on opponents Im folding 9/10o UTG with 45BB even 6 handed, unless you have a good read that your table is overly tight. I think calling his flop raise is fine. When he bets again on the turn his range is mostly made of flushes, sets, pair+flush draw, J10, maybe even A10. I think by shoving on the turn you take away his opportunity to bluff on the river, and is going to call your shove with mostly hands that beat you. I think I am just calling the turn and calling most rivers except hearts and when the board pairs.

Thx for the reply.  My play on the turn was based on the fact that I just had a really strong feeling that villain never has a made flush there.  I would take flushes out of his range and everything else you said I think he can have.  I dont think he bombs the turn w/ AT unless he has the Aheart.  Having said that, I hate flatting the turn and I think folding is better than flatting.  I think shoving is better than folding, we don't want to give a free card to pair + flush draws and villain is probably comitted here where he has to call off just over 10k when I shove and the pot is at 24k before the shove.  Regarding the open, I think it's fine as deep as we are.  I was playing somewhere around 30/25 at this point and was feeling really good about the table and the spot.  Thx again!

theginger45

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April 7, 2014 - 7:36 pm
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Can't really play it any other way postflop – considering villain can still have a bunch of sets in his range and there are only a few combos of hearts he would actually flat pre here, and considering turn is shove or fold with how much is in the pot, AND we have a backdoor heart ourselves, I think anything except getting it in on turn would be pretty bad. The 7, 9, T, J of hearts are all out there already, so what flush cards are we thinking he's flatting in the SB that don't include those cards? Basically only KQhh, considering he'd probably 3bet for value with AK/AQ and as a bluff with other Ax suited combos. This means even if he exclusively has sets and flushes on the turn, he has way more combos of sets.

However, I think preflop is probably too lose. Just because it's 6max doesn't mean you can just open any hand you like. This is probably much too loose, although not knowing the other stacks at the table makes it hard to say for sure.

CCuster 911
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April 14, 2014 - 11:49 pm
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Aggree with the ginger.  Very few flush combos in his range that we have to snap get it in.  

 

I also agree with the sentiments in regards to not opening this hand preflop as it is just too speculative for 6 max.  You are going to get enough hands to open that opening wide in this position should not include offsuit connectors like this.  I can imagine this being fine on FT bubbles or maybe even final two tables and final table generally with really tight players.  But not generally, and it is a bad habit to get into.

 

Couple that with no long term hand storage on bovada and you are just getting speculative.

For Coaching - ccuster911@gmail.com - HH Reviews/Leak Finder(HEM or PT)/Concept Discussion

MovesLikeDarvin

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April 15, 2014 - 11:59 am
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dying to see if OP can check out what the guy had, or if there is going to be a spoiler.

i genuinely dislike the open here, unless your tables cumulative VPIP is like 12. if bovada is still like it was a year ago, you could easily just play ABC in many spots and print money. 

otherwise, as like 100,000 times before, i like what ginger says and the rationale behind it.

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RonFezBuddy
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April 30, 2014 - 11:35 pm
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Hey…we just covered on the podcast…we want results!!!

jacobsharktank
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May 1, 2014 - 10:37 am
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sick ill shoot him a text and tell him to post

jacobsharktank
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May 1, 2014 - 12:05 pm
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Okay so I tried to grunch, but when I saw all the pro commentary I just had to read it. I hope this isn't too influenced by it, or at least if it is, it's more educated and less circle jerk.

 

I don't like the open unless you are able to open every hand for a period of time without any confrontation whatsoever. There are definitely dynamics where you can get away with stealing literally any two cards for stretches of hands until the control is lost, but I don't think they happen very often, nor do I think we necessarily need to force them because we can easily end up building big pots, and if our post flop frequencies are in anyway wrong, you're going to end up on a lot of turns with a lot of 7bb-10bb pots with very little equity in them. On top of that, your post flop frequencies could be perfect and yet you'd still stand to lose because youll have way too many hands in your range when you get to the flop, which means youll have too many when you get to the turn, which means youll have too many when you get to the river. If you somehow correct this on an earlier street, you're giving away chips with the open at all. It doesn't necessarily take someone adjusting to you for you to lose overall when you open this wide preflop because theyll just have hands that don't fold enough of the time. 

 

It being a KO tourney theoretically shifts the benefits of stealing in some manner because $50 is 1/3 of a buy-in for x% of your stack. This is more like…impactful way earlier in the game when having say a double stack doesn't mean you're getting to the money, but  x% of your stack can be risked in spots for guaranteed 1/3 buy-ins. When you're deep and closer to the money, I don't think that's really as important. I think it's probably overtaken by the fact that your equity in the tournament is a lot greater than what it is at the beginning. A straight up simplified calcuation would say if I got this correctly, all stacks and skills equal, your tournament life is worth about twice as much now as when it started. (20k/$150= 133 people…I imagine it broke the guarantee and got closer to 200 people, which actually makes bounties even less valuable) if your stack is now worht $500, a bounty is only 10% of your stack. So yah, that would discourage wider wider opens and stuff, I think anyway. That doesn't mean it's not overtaken by something telling you to raise more often, it's just something that would be a theoretical push toward not opening as wide.

 

Okay actual math. When you open as a steal (and I assume you believe this to be so), you can measure the success of it with some math. Preflop there's gonna be 1050 in the pot and youre risking 1k. If the hand's ended here exactly, you'd need to be successful 48.8% of the time to break even. When you open, no matter the vpip there are a few hands that will play no matter what. If we say that no matter the position, 99+ AQ+ is continuing vs your open in some fashion. That's 4.9% of hands overall (accounting for the 9 you block), and with 5 people left to act, there's nearly a 25% chance someone has one of these hands. That's just an avoidable part and you can't really make assumptions that these hands will fold to flop or turn cbets based on various flops just because you feel like it. Basically I think that means that there's just a high chance that you have to see a flop when you open utg. If you were to do this with A5s, you decrease the chances of someone being involved in the hand by 20% because of your blocker. You go from 65 combos of hands that continue to 52 combos (remove half Ace combos and double 99 combos). That's 25% to 20%. That's not exactly insignificant. It's why I don't like opening incredibly wide here in the first place, because you can get away with it when you do it with blocker hands, or play postflop with hands that continue better (like JTs kinda stuff) If you open 89o here, you're opening like…I don't know 50% of hands here. If you opened all pairs, AT+, and KJ+, youre still only opening like 15% of hands, so it's really really easy to exploit you if you open this wide utg. In a high US buy-in 6 max tournament, clicking back poorly will occur, light 3betting will occur, like the player pool does that sort of without much of a plan in general, but you can't combat that by opening wide utg and then 4b or play postflop oop in a not small pot all the time.

 

On the flop, the pot is 8580, so youre getting 4.125:1 meaning you need to “win” 19.5% of the time. You know that once he check raises, you're unlikely to see the river for free. If you call, the pot's 10.6k and you'll have 18k behind. Even a small bet by villain makes it difficult to ever have fold equity, unless a small bet means really weak holdings, which I don't think he'll even have. like I don't think someone's c/r Axs and then leading small on the turn to maybe set their price so to speak. I think an Axs on missed turns is going to push their fold equity as umch as possible. I think it's weird to fold flop, but like…I don't know look at the math. You're not getting the river for free, you don't have fold equity unless villain shuts down, and you have only 6 clean outs and another 2 that may/may not also give villain a flush. I think the flop is shove or fold. His c/r makes the pot 10.6k (if you put your remaining 1600 in) and around 18k behind. He'll be getting 28k:18k , meaning he'll need to have 38% against your range. I'm not sure, but if he's thinking about your hands and doesn't necessarily realize you're shoving a lot of hands here (I mean you won't be), you look like JJ+ and while I don't think you'd play those hands that way, he could think that easily think that just by the fact that that's how the not as good guys would play it. I'm not entirely sure on how you appear to villain, so take this with a grain of salt.  I wouldn't want to do this with the nut flush draw, but doing it with a hand like this feels like a really good one of your range to do it with given that we got here. You get all flush draws except Ax to fold outright, all of which beat your 9 high. you get 88/99 7x stuff like T8/T9 KT JT to fold or face a really big decision. you block some of that folding range though with youre 89. It being a boutny may also cause you to get called in bigger pots more often because people overadjust for them ALL THE TIME. You have outs against anything that calls you, though much of the calling range here has redraw outs to you.

 

I've rambled a bunch here. Hope this adds to the discussion. I think a lot of this can be avoided simply by folding pre and having a constructed range that fits appropriately with gameflow in mind. if youre in tons of steals mode, then you want to do it with hands that play well when called or hands that block hands that continue postflop. this just comes down to being too loose. not that i think we need to assume villain's are going to have a hud, but anyone with a hud is going to see your stat and 3b you light and open up their value range a ton against you. 

jasonchr
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May 1, 2014 - 12:58 pm
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Sorry – will let doug answer this when gets off work

jacobsharktank
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May 1, 2014 - 1:02 pm
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just talked to him. he said he'd post when he got home from work tonight. so you might wanna take that down just so he gets to reveal?

jacobsharktank
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May 1, 2014 - 3:23 pm
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take everything i said and picture it from the hj instead of utg because i messed that up. so 25% becomes 20%, 20% becomes 16%

Douggyfr3sh
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May 1, 2014 - 9:56 pm
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Hey Guys, Thanks for covering the hand today on the podcast!  Villain had TT and binked the quad ball- GG us.

 

Edit: 

 

Will post reply to all the analysis tomorrow, grind on the mind right now!~!!

jacobsharktank
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May 5, 2014 - 5:46 pm
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get back in here doug!

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