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So I joined TPE because though I never play tourneys I have been playing the shallow buyin cash games on Full Tilt lately and wanted some more info on 20-40 bb play, since I'm used to 100bb play. I think a lot of the same things apply other than obv stuff like abusing the bubble doesn't exist, etc. I wanted to get your guys default approach in this situation:
-You are in SB and cover the BB who has 20bb effective (let's say no antes yet, not near bubble etc, so it applies more to cash play). BB is a tag regular who is a good thinking player.
-What is your raising range into the BB? Let's say he is a fairly aggressive 3-better and does so with a totally balanced range. What should our raising range be? Our raising size? Do you like 2.5x, 3x, etc?
-Without specific reads or history, how do we respond to 3bets and with what hands should we go with?
-Ever do anything funky like min raise SB into bb, limp/steal, any other tricks?
-How does your strategy change at 30bb? 40bb effective?
Just curious to see what your approaches are…thanks!
Pete
October 6, 2010
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with anything less than 20bb in tourneys, its best just to open shove on the sb with a ridiculously wide range, because they fold a lot, especially when there are antes to pick up.
the problem is that this works in tourneys because you have massive fold equity, whereas in cash games you have a lot less, so i dont think you can really apply this in cash games. so i think you still have to open as normal.
in general though, if someone is 3betting you a ton, the best thing to do is tighten up your opening range, but loosen up your 4bet/shoving range.
i.e dont open your TJ or KJ anymore, but a hand like TT or JJ or AQs you can now shove for value over his 3bets because they are light.
when you are short stacked i would go to 2.5x even in cash games rather than the standard 3 or 3.5. even min raising could work well here.
just my two cents, i dont have much experience in shallow cash games, but i hope it helps.
Thanks man, really good reply. You're right about cash games being different in that there's no real fear of busting, it's just 20bb…so you can't pick on the BB like you can in an MTT.
If we are not opening KJ or TJ that's a pretty tight opening range, with all pairs, AT+, KQ+, QJss it's like 11%. Seems crazy just to fold 89% there, or even expect to get value when you do open because that's so tight. But I agree about tighten open range/loosen 4bet shove requirements.
I actually prefer to play blind vs blind situations against a 20bb stack a lot more cautious than most. I also limp/shove a lot to mix things up and get people to check their bbs when they should be raising. It creates a nice dynamic when you limp/shove on people a couple times and most regs never raise me light with awkward stacks because of my limp/shoves tendencies.
October 6, 2010
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Thanks man, really good reply. You're right about cash games being different in that there's no real fear of busting, it's just 20bb…so you can't pick on the BB like you can in an MTT.
If we are not opening KJ or TJ that's a pretty tight opening range, with all pairs, AT+, KQ+, QJss it's like 11%. Seems crazy just to fold 89% there, or even expect to get value when you do open because that's so tight. But I agree about tighten open range/loosen 4bet shove requirements.
i was just using examples, you still might want to open them, up to the game dynamic of course. hell if he is doing it really light then you could shove 88 or AJ or something for value too.
October 6, 2010
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Wein said:
I actually prefer to play blind vs blind situations against a 20bb stack a lot more cautious than most. I also limp/shove a lot to mix things up and get people to check their bbs when they should be raising. It creates a nice dynamic when you limp/shove on people a couple times and most regs never raise me light with awkward stacks because of my limp/shoves tendencies.
i think this would work well against aggressive players, to stop them raising/shoving llight on you.
at my humble stakes though, i think its better to shove as they basically never call you down correctly or raise light on you, even when you do “weak” things like limp up the sb.
Wein said:
I actually prefer to play blind vs blind situations against a 20bb stack a lot more cautious than most. I also limp/shove a lot to mix things up and get people to check their bbs when they should be raising. It creates a nice dynamic when you limp/shove on people a couple times and most regs never raise me light with awkward stacks because of my limp/shoves tendencies.
Thanks Wein, that's something I will have to incorporate. Can you give me any general idea of a range you're doing this with? Obviously you're balancing your limp shoves, but what kind of hands does the “semi bluff” part of your limp shove range include? (Since value is pretty obvious)
depends on the tendencies of the player in the big blind. If he raises my limp a lot, I'll shove as wide as like 85s, whereas if he's on the really tight side I'd limp/fold as strong as an ace/x
October 6, 2010
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Wein said:
depends on the tendencies of the player in the big blind. If he raises my limp a lot, I'll shove as wide as like 85s, whereas if he's on the really tight side I'd limp/fold as strong as an ace/x
against someone really tight, why not just raise and collect the dead money?
i find this play interesting because i have never really contemplated flatting the small blind in any case except in a bit multiway just for the implied odds.
July 3, 2010
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Wein said:
I actually prefer to play blind vs blind situations against a 20bb stack a lot more cautious than most. I also limp/shove a lot to mix things up and get people to check their bbs when they should be raising. It creates a nice dynamic when you limp/shove on people a couple times and most regs never raise me light with awkward stacks because of my limp/shoves tendencies.
I play blind vs. blind spots pretty conservative, too. You can maneuver yourself into some super high variance situations and I feel like I'm plenty good enough to not have to do this pre-antes.
FWIW I doubt I ever jam SB vs. BB 20 bb effective stacks pre-antes.
Why would I jam sb vs. bb at the 100/200 level?
I'm probably making a standard raise with a polarized range and will slowly turn that into a merged range as I begin to figure out the bb's tendencies.
As Wein said I often limp/call and do some funky stuff in the SB because you can own them so hard post-flop. I've built stacks so many times in blind vs. blind confrontations and it was never because I open jammed into him and got lucky.
Good questions, OP. If the BB here is a good TAG player with a balanced 3 betting range that just means we'd probably drop our trash hands out of our raising range and widen our 4 betting range to include stuff like AJ, KJs, 99 … if he's merging his range it means he's started 3 betting some midpairs that normally would just be flats so now we can 4 bet and make him start turning those hands into 3 bet bluffs.
June 11, 2010
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gobsmacked1 said:
So I joined TPE because though I never play tourneys I have been playing the shallow buyin cash games on Full Tilt lately and wanted some more info on 20-40 bb play, since I'm used to 100bb play. I think a lot of the same things apply other than obv stuff like abusing the bubble doesn't exist, etc. I wanted to get your guys default approach in this situation:
-You are in SB and cover the BB who has 20bb effective (let's say no antes yet, not near bubble etc, so it applies more to cash play). BB is a tag regular who is a good thinking player.
// No antes and early on with less than 20bb, pretty good chance he is spewy and I probably just walk him out based on Tourney play. If he is a TAG regular that I know, then looks like he has been unlucky, not sure of his present state of mind (i.e. ultra monkey tilt) so I may just walk him out again. That aside if you know he doesn't defend very wide then you can certainly open a very wide range (I would go almost as far as ATC) to a level appropriate raise (<75/150 I use full 3x, above that i use 2.5x with a min raise starting around the 500/1000 level).
-What is your raising range into the BB? Let's say he is a fairly aggressive 3-better and does so with a totally balanced range. What should our raising range be? Our raising size? Do you like 2.5x, 3x, etc?
// If I am pretty sure the BB is going to crank into me regardless of what I do there is no way I am going to raise into him with almost anything. If I know that I am going to get paid off by his aggression I think I complete almost everytime and let him do the work for me. If I don't have something that I think has value or I am willing to play a big pot with, then there is a good chance I am going to just walk him out. I may mix in some flatting and trying to outplay him post-flop there, but in general I try to avoid BvB clashes with an overly aggressive BB as it is very difficult to get a read on where you are.
-Without specific reads or history, how do we respond to 3bets and with what hands should we go with?
// 3betting depends a lot on what is going on, the player and the table dynamics. Absent of any information I will credit the guy with being ahead of me unless I am holding onto a really really narrow range (I think i may fold JJ, AQ in this situation with no information) until I see otherwise. In general my approach is to believe what you are trying to represent until I can confirm it otherwise and then play appropriately from there. That being said there is a lot less time and ability to gather than information in a tourney due to the escalating blind levels, where in a cash game you have much more time and flexibility to gather that at a relatively consistent price.
-Ever do anything funky like min raise SB into bb, limp/steal, any other tricks?
// All the time, depends a lot on what I am trying to extract though. Early in tourneys when it is still pretty cheap and I get a rare BvB situation, I will try all kinds of things to see how the BB will behave (like i said above looking to see how agg the BB is and that will dictate a lot of my future play with him), that way I have better info on how to play my monsters and get paid off. I am not a big limper as I hate not knowing where I am and big multiway pots make you a lot more flop dependant than being HU or 3way. My favorite tricks involve using micro stakes players fears against them, I like to try to steal a lot of pots where Kings, Aces or 3 to a Flush show up on the turn or river.
-How does your strategy change at 30bb? 40bb effective?
// Not much changes for me less than 50bb effective. Once I get above 50bb then where in the tourney I am and what levels I am at and number remaining become big considerations. When I am deep stacked I will then start to feel out what the table will let me get away with, I will start 3betting TAG players more, opening up more pots and in general try to see where the resistance begins and from who if it does at all. The one special consideration range that does change is the 20-30bb range, I pretty much start looking exlusively for 3bet shove spots to take advantage of before I have to switch into a push/fold mode.
Just curious to see what your approaches are…thanks!
Pete
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