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Attempted Steal
Joseph Hogarty
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October 5, 2014 - 4:24 am
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#Game No : 626951694
***** 888poker Hand History for Game 626951694 *****
$75/$150 Blinds No Limit Holdem – ***
Tournament #62317814 $20 + $2 – Table #13 (Real Money)
Seat 1 is the button
Total number of players : 9
Seat 1: 7snegurka7 ( $10,687 )
Seat 2: kashedup01 ( $9,779 )
Seat 3: Nikks15 ( $5,000 )
Seat 4: 4eTkuu_Tun ( $5,225 )
Seat 5: jamisod ( $1,189 )
Seat 6: jhogzzz ( $7,361 )
Seat 7: Sergio660 ( $3,659 )
Seat 9: serg0013 ( $7,665 )
Seat 10: MaestroAlexS ( $11,548 )
kashedup01 posts small blind [$75]
Nikks15 posts big blind [$150]
** Dealing down cards **
Dealt to jhogzzz [ 4h, 4c ]
4eTkuu_Tun folds
jamisod folds
jhogzzz raises [$330]
Sergio660 folds
serg0013 folds
MaestroAlexS folds
7snegurka7 folds
kashedup01 calls [$255]
Nikks15 folds
** Dealing flop ** [ 9s, Jd, Qc ]
kashedup01 checks
jhogzzz checks
** Dealing turn ** [ Ts ]
kashedup01 checks
jhogzzz bets [$405]
kashedup01 calls [$405]
** Dealing river ** [ 3d ]
kashedup01 checks
jhogzzz bets [$1,215]
kashedup01 calls [$1,215]
** Summary **
jhogzzz shows [ 4h, 4c ]
kashedup01 shows [ Ad, Js ]
kashedup01 collected [ $4,050 ]

So on the turn decided I probably had the worst hand and that with my check behind on the flop it was very believable that I was holding a king and proceeded to try and push him off a likely pair. Do you think that this was a poor move by me or that villain mad a bad call.

Al29
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October 5, 2014 - 9:02 am
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It's a pretty wet board to be calling down turn and river, does the Villain have any previous with you or have you shown down bluffs so far? If you are repping a K your river bet seems bluffy in size as what are you hoping will call? I think a 1/2 pot bet or slightly less looks more like a value bet if you are repping a K.

 

Also, how many hands do you have with a K? AK, KQ, KJ and K10?

 

AK, KJ and K10 might check the flop, he has blockers to AK and KJ and when the 10 hits the turn this lessens the chance of you holding K10. KQ would bet the flop to protect the hand on a wet board so that leaves your only likely range AK out of hands you would PF raise with.

 

I don't necessarily like his call but I doub't I would bet at all on this pot with 44, there's too much of his range that this flop hits and I think you'd be better of looking for better bluffing spots. Only my opinion though, and I think the balance between playing too nitty post flop and playing too aggressive is a very hard thing to get right, I tend to rely on HUD stats and notes I have on my opponents and if I don't have decent info on either I prefer to play more straightforward which in this instance would be to check it down and fold to any action.

Joseph Hogarty
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October 5, 2014 - 9:35 am
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Cheers mate,

 

No I didn't have a history with him just that my hud told me he was an average player. It was early on in the tournament and I was trying to cheekily push him off what I thought was some sort of pair.

 

Yeah AK was the hand I was really trying to rep as I thought it would seem to make up a fair portion of my check behind on the flop range, also including pairs of 9s, js and small pockets. I think any made hand or draw on the flop there has to be c-bet so my range is pretty isolated to these hands as well as maybe some connectors I may have opened that missed completely on that board.

 

I think you're right, in hindsight I feel like I can find much better spots and that I shouldn't be making moves like this without much info on villain.

 

Also I think my bet sizing was a little off I think half pot would have been better my thinking at the time was that my HUD told me that he wasn't a very good player and I thought that if i made it too small he would just look me up every time expecially with a Q.

 

Thanks for your feedback, much appreciated

Foucault

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October 5, 2014 - 12:28 pm
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I agree this isn't a hugely profitable spot, but it's not like you're risking the last of your chips. I think people take this “find a better spot” thing way too far. You're supposed to have a bluffing range unless you have a read that Villain calls too often, and I think this is a good hand to do it with. I actually think the more questionable thing is betting the turn. I don't see any point in betting turn unless you plan to bluff river. As for sizing, you should bet larger when you are polarized and have a lot of bluffing candidates, I think that part is fine.

lapp3r30
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October 6, 2014 - 2:03 am
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Agree w AI29 in the sense that, I’m not sure how many kings you can have that don’t bet the flop. I think most people cb w a Q on this board as well as most straight draws. So I think it’s hard to rep after checking flop. Agree w Andrew… But I think it plays better betting flop, x turn and bet river. Result may be the same… But you’re gonna have it sometimes.

Al29
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October 6, 2014 - 3:53 pm
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I agree we need to have a bluffing range but the size of that range depends on what we are trying to represent by bluffing here, if we are only bluffing AK which has 12 combos should we not only be bluffing with the same amount of combos also to be balanced? If so then we might only bluff with 2 of our pairs between 2s and 7s, as each pair would make up 6 combos.

 

The concern I have with saying 44 is a good hand to bluff here, is it indicates 22 through 77 are also good hands to bluff, and we might want to throw in some Ax hands as well, as we start to do this we unbalance our bluffing range as it becomes wider than our value betting range – and here I mean perceived value betting range from the way the hand was played.

 

I may be overcomplicating the situation, but I think we need to be careful we don't blast away merrily with every small pair on this flop, and if we aren't going to do this we need to have some rough guidelines in our minds of which hands we do and don't bluff with, I'd be tempted to bluff more with my Axs hands as the A has a blocker to hands with a kicker villain might call down with, and would just check small pairs down. I'm just spitballing here, trying to explore how we don't be bluff crazy. confused

Foucault

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October 6, 2014 - 6:35 pm
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Al,

You're right that bluffing all small pairs would be a mistake. Generally smaller will be better, as 77 will have slightly more showdown value than 44. You actually want to bluff even less than you suggest. Balanced does not mean 50-50. On the river, a pot-sized bet with a polarized range should be 33% bluffs, so that Villain wins with a call exactly in proportion to the pot odds he is offered. So yes, if AK is the only hand in your value range, you won't be able to bluff very often, and 22-33 would more than exhaust all of your bluffing needs.

nonsimplesimon
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October 9, 2014 - 12:10 am
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i agree that betting that turn is meh…

MovesLikeDarvin

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October 13, 2014 - 2:20 pm
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Foucault,can we bluff wider than only our 22 & 44 combos if we have more thin-value bets? i think we're value betting 88, KJ, K9s, AK hands that we will probably have in our preflop range (esp if we're opening 22+), and—although I have no idea how we saw a free turn with these hands—sets?

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