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Are makeup stakes inherently negative e.v.?
andinista
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November 27, 2010 - 11:46 am
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I started playing stakes, and staking a bit, on part time poker this year, with some really good success in no makeup stakes (80/20 or 75/25, essentially freerolls for the horse). I see this type of stake as being an awesome means for a broke player to build up a bankroll without risk or depositing. However, the no makeup stake is less common, most are working 50/50 cuts with makeup. To me it seems like a loan which I will have to repay anyways, and the interest is a crushing 50% of my income while the loan is out. A cash advance on my VISA seems like much better value. Am I missing something here, or are makeup stakes inherently massively neg. ev for the horse, and a veiled form of mobster loan sharking?

Hagbard Celine
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November 27, 2010 - 1:12 pm
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yes you are missing something.

 

no interest acrues on makeup, and you shouldn't have to pay makeup with your own income.

 

example: i stake you 50/50 with makeup. each month we look at the balances and if they are in the black then we split the profit 50/50, and if it's in the red (makeup), then it carries over to the next month.

 

i send you $5k and the first month you win 10k. so there's $15k in the account. we keep the initial $5k in the account and each take $5K.

 

the second month you lose the 5k in the account, and i send you another 5k which is lost as well. so we carry this 10k in makeup over to the next month. you don't have to suddenly come up with 10K for me, and there is no interest running on it that will turn the 10K into 15K without you losing another 5K.

 

so the third month i send another 5K and you go on a heater and win 30K. so the balance in the account is 35K. i decide that staking isn't for me and want to end it. first the makeup and my initial 5k investment are taken out. the makeup is 10k, plus my 5k is 15k for me and then we split the remaining 20k 50/50.

 

so we've both made 15K off the stake.

 

staking arrangements vary, and if entering a long-term staking arrangement you definitely want to make everything as clear as possible up front so that there is no confusion later when money is involved. but certainly a stake is not a loan, should never include interest, and should never be paid out of your pocket.

Wein
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November 27, 2010 - 10:22 pm
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Hagbard explains this pretty well.

andinista
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November 28, 2010 - 2:53 am
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indeed a good really explanation. The points about interest free and not repaying cake out of pocket are valid. I guess the staking question comes back to whether the benefits that staking afford (less pressure, bigger buyins, etc.) justify the percentage of profits paid. I see some micro stakes that are as much as 70/30 with makeup, and doubt that one could beat the game, the rake,  and still earn a decently hourly rate with that 30%. But if I find a 50/50 stake that allows me to play triple the volume at bigger buyins and still beat the game, maybe that 50% cut is a price well worth paying. 

just discovered this forum today, learned a ton in the scope of an hour of surfing, keep up the good work. In particular, I'd been searching for some insight on the 20bb raise/fold debate, and the thread here was best explanation I've seen. tx.

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