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October 21, 2013
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Here is the hand, villain is a reg I dont have a particular dynamic with him but at this table i've overshoved river a couple of times already (i never showed) so i thought this could have been a good spot to shove for value also gievn the fact that he calls from SB… im not sure if it's just a cooler or if i should have used a different size on that river (to fold obv)…
May 20, 2013
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Had to watch this one twice Riar. You took the risk/reward of flatting the AQ, allowing a blind to come along (we have to put suited in SB's range now). SB check calls two streets so he has a hand, and you have TP. I can only assume you want to rep a set that made a boat?
Why would you even bet the river for value (what is your target hand)? A busted draw wont call. So your target would have to be a hand strong enough to call two streets, yet not bluff lead the river. (That means he can beat top pair.)
When you bet the turn instead of trying to manage the pot, I am going to think more along the lines of you trying to get a fold and not trying to get 3 streets of value from a set on a all flush board. If I am him, I am not giving you credit for the rivered boat based on this line and I am calling the overshove.
I think you check behind here.
You could have alternatively, checked behind on the turn. Now you can call a turn lead or if he checks, bet the river for value (but not shove) about the size of your turn bet. Doesn't work out, but seems like a better line.
October 21, 2013
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Thanks for commenting but we clearly think about poker in 2 very different ways and i would like to hear some other comments
August 4, 2014
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I will agree with It columbo on what he said and here is how I would play it.
First of all, I would have made it 2.75-3x or something for the open because there is already one limper.
As played, I like the first bet for value. I also like the second bet for value. However, the shove on the river is not justifiable because he will not call you with worse. I think villain played this hand perfectly and he managed to get you do the job for him.
I would have definitely checked behind and see the results as now there is not only a flush danger, but a second 8 came in.
Btw, especially if he is a reg, he is never calling that shove with a pair.
A second best play would be to bet very little on the turn(around 25-30% of the pot) with the intention of folding to a raise. This way we MAY get some extra value from Ax. But this is pretty unlikely since we have an A blocker.
Add the chance that he flopped a set, he will never call with worse except for Ax.
TPE Pro
December 6, 2012
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Yeah, too thin. I mean how wide do you think he is calling from the SB? You think he has ATo in his range? A9o? There just isn't that much you beat when he calls river, so he doesn't have to show up with better all that often to make this unprofitable. Also I don't think you are particularly close to the top of your range here.
October 21, 2013
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Foucault said:
Yeah, too thin. I mean how wide do you think he is calling from the SB? You think he has ATo in his range? A9o? There just isn't that much you beat when he calls river, so he doesn't have to show up with better all that often to make this unprofitable. Also I don't think you are particularly close to the top of your range here.
Yeah i have to agree, it is a mistake not only because i wrongfully assesed his calling (A9o def not, at the time of the hand i thought that he could have ATo but now i m pretty sure he wouldnt) but also beacause i dont have many (any at all?) bluffs here since im never gonna flat pf with a Ksxo combo. So given these two factors i should even thin bet river right ? only check it back…
next step: and now that i think of it… if we check back AQ (and similia) here and we dont have bluffs (i dont see any unless i decide to turn a pp into a bluff), villain should fold his lowish flush when we shove right ? i mean, once assesed we cant shove AQ AK for value, he is not beating anything that i shove for value…
TPE Pro
December 6, 2012
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Riar said:
Foucault said:
Yeah, too thin. I mean how wide do you think he is calling from the SB? You think he has ATo in his range? A9o? There just isn't that much you beat when he calls river, so he doesn't have to show up with better all that often to make this unprofitable. Also I don't think you are particularly close to the top of your range here.
Yeah i have to agree, it is a mistake not only because i wrongfully assesed his calling (A9o def not, at the time of the hand i thought that he could have ATo but now i m pretty sure he wouldnt) but also beacause i dont have many (any at all?) bluffs here since im never gonna flat pf with a Ksxo combo. So given these two factors i should even thin bet river right ? only check it back…
next step: and now that i think of it… if we check back AQ (and similia) here and we dont have bluffs (i dont see any unless i decide to turn a pp into a bluff), villain should fold his lowish flush when we shove right ? i mean, once assesed we cant shove AQ AK for value, he is not beating anything that i shove for value…
If you don't have any bluffs in your range, you are doing something wrong. If V were really folding this hand to a shove, then you certainly should find a way to show up with some bluffs, in which case he shouldn't fold this hand to a shove…
October 21, 2013
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yeah i know we should always have bluffs in any given spot, thats why i asked what bluffs would you have in a spot like this because i couldnt come up with any…
TPE Pro
December 6, 2012
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Probably bet small pairs and/or whiffed suited connectors on the flop if these are the bottom of your range and barrel turn when you have small pair + spade.
TPE Pro
December 30, 2013
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without reading any other input so as to not bias mine:
preflop i think i just HAVE to 3b this. you're more likely to see a HU pot you have a hand that dominates most ranges these days, and youll have pos on OR. many of your postflop situations will be much easier than this (lot of OR check/folding, pretty much).
postflop i was totally in line with everything you did till the river. the river overbet shove really minimizes his calling range to only things that have you beat—small boats, A8, flushes—and folds out everything you had crushed—AJ, AT, Ax really, and some hero'ing pocket pairs. i very much like a bet small/fold line on the river when checked to for a third time.
ps look for the HH review of your run to come out very soon, i think early Dec 🙂
October 21, 2013
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Hi Chris, all you say it's def true but, the problem with 3betting here a hand suh as AQs is that i hate life when i got 4bet, also by 3betting i give him the chance to fold a lot of dominated hands.
I think AQs plays very well post flop and im not that scared to play mw pots, sure it's gonna be tougher to but it also gonna put me in new situations that ll improve how i play/think pker
As played i think you are over estimating his calling range from SB but i def agree that shoving for thin value was the wrong move especially vs such tight non creative opponents as most regs on .it are better bettting 1/3 to fold…
p.s. i have the exact same problem that you posted on the forum with mp pots in HM2 but couldnt find a solution… did you ? =(
p.p.s. thanks a lot great cant wait !!
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