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Home Forum MTT Poker Strategy AQs spot deep in tourney

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AQs spot deep in tourney

ultrafish18

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March 13, 2014 - 3:32 pm

3200+ runners 73 left 2k starting stack on stars with longer blind levels but bigger jumps so almost like a turbo.

had only moved tables 1 orbit or so before no reads on opponent,is this a fold or shove spot?

Poker Stars $1.00+$0.10 No Limit Hold'em Tournament – t1250/t2500 Blinds + t250 – 8 players – View hand 2452862
TournamentPokerEdge.com Hand History Converter

cristian_c7 (SB): BB = 7.8, t19491
StEfAnWW (BB): BB = 40.2, t100576
google1284 (UTG): BB = 27.8, t69404
Saha88 (UTG+1): BB = 57.8, t144528
blinger21 (MP1): BB = 38.0, t95006
murad650 (MP2): BB = 40.9, t102306
Hero (CO): BB = 37.1, t92826
Dmitry1101 (BTN): BB = 6.6, t16497

Pre Flop: (t5750) Hero is CO with A of spades Q
1 fold, Saha88 raises to t5000, 2 folds, Hero raises to t12500, 3 folds, Saha88 raises to t27500

SIGABA

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March 13, 2014 - 8:08 pm

I like your 3bet. You are ensuring that you will have postion for the rest of the hand by raising the button out, and giving yourself the chance to win right here. The amount looks a little big to me … I wouldn't go any bigger. If I were in middle position I might make it 12500, but in the cutoff you can probably get the button and blinds to fold for a little less, maybe 11,111?

Now he 4bets you and basically clicks it back. If you fold you will have lost 5BB and be left w/ 32BB in your stack. If you call here you are committing another 6BB, and you will have 27BB in your stack. If you shove you are committing him to call another 27BB. The sizing of his 4bet looks nutty to me. It looks to me like he wants a call, or a raise.

What hands are you beating here? Would he do this w/ AJ or less? I doubt it. I think most players would do this w/ JJ+, AK, and maybe 10% other (JTs, 78s, etc). I think if you shove here you are only getting called by hands that have you crushed, and on the off chance that he has a random hand, nh sir. You bluffed me. I would fold in this spot.

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CCuster 911

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March 13, 2014 - 8:27 pm

A couple nit picking things about the above post. one you advoating making your 3bet, 2.2x his raise, but then say the opponents 4 bet, which is about 2.2x, is basically clicking it back. Sure its a little scary with him being OOP, but its a fairly standard 4 bet sizing from regs.

I think OPs 3 bet is a fine size (I usually make it 12345 here). HOWEVER, I like calling here pre. Especially if you plan on folding to him after 3 betting. You can underrep your hand, in position, as well as set up squeeze spots from behind that you can shove and be in great shape against.

As played, it really dpends on my thoughts on him, judging by sizing he seems competent so i thnik he can be light a deceent amount here, so I dont mind a shove. But may also fold in game, if I like my edge in tourney.

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SIGABA

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March 13, 2014 - 10:50 pm

Maybe this is a leak in my game, and if it is, please let me know.

My reasoning is this; I have been 3betting for less (2.2x) in late position because you accomplish the same thing:

1. You get the BUT and Blinds to fold

2. You isolate the OOP raiser

3. You save .3bb

4. And I think the OOP raiser is just as likely to [fold or 4bet] to a 2.2x 3bet as he is to a 2.5x 3bet

If my reasoning is off (which I have a feeling it is) then could you elaborate a bit?

Thank you very much!

~Steve

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jjpregler

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March 14, 2014 - 7:07 am

In this spot, I like to call preflop instead of 3 betting. The villain is opening the pot from early position with no reads. In general with no reads, I think most players are opening early position with about 7% to 10% of hands. AQs is about the top 4% of hands, so in reality, AQs is smack in the middle of the villain's range. By 3 betting in general, you fold out all of the hands AQs plays well against, and the villain continues with all of the hands that have AQs crushed.

I usually don't attack early position raises without a read.

Regarding the sizing, I think the sizing is ok.

What do we do after the 4 bet? I'm leaning toward a fold. Here's my thinking, we are still a little unsure of his ranges, AQs could be good here to shove or it could be crushed. In one of Lee Childs seminars I went to, he told me that when you are thinking I might be good, is a good time to fold.

If he's a LAG, (we don't know that yet) his open range could be as high as 20% from EP. Then AQs is definitely strong enough to 3 bet his range, then his 4 bet range will have premiums plus a balance of wekaer hands, and AQs is not folding in that spot.

But if he's more of standard player, his open range is about 10% or less from thsi position, which probably means his 4 bet range has AQs crushed, and even if he has some bluffs in his range not enough to make AQs profitable any longer.

CCuster 911

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March 14, 2014 - 5:25 pm

SIGABA said:

Maybe this is a leak in my game, and if it is, please let me know.

My reasoning is this; I have been 3betting for less (2.2x) in late position because you accomplish the same thing:

1. You get the BUT and Blinds to fold

2. You isolate the OOP raiser

3. You save .3bb

4. And I think the OOP raiser is just as likely to [fold or 4bet] to a 2.2x 3bet as he is to a 2.5x 3bet

If my reasoning is off (which I have a feeling it is) then could you elaborate a bit?

Thank you very much!

~Steve

1. This is true, it is often the case that your 3 betting size will not really have an effect on players who havent acted.

2. yep

3. This is soethng I do have a slight problem with. You say save. That implies that you are stealing. Your sizing should be weighted towards your range. We are still 3 betting, so we are going to have value hands in our range. This early, where ffective stacks are not all that shallow, I tend to make it 2.4-2.5x over a single raiser IP(2.7-2.8x OOP)

4. Ths I disagree with, good players will definitely adjust. It may not be a lot, but it doesnt really have to be. I also think bad players are gonna call OOP, and in these cases you WANT them to put in money OOP, so the more the merrier.

I dont disagree with your 3 betting size. It all depnds on how comofrtable you are postflop, your image, and your plan. I just tend to make it a little more. My concern is that you seem to have a disconnect in how you perceive 3 bets to how you perceive 4 bets. You say the guy is effectively clicking it back, BUT he is making it a size of abou what you recommend for 3 betting(2.2x).

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manxmann78

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March 14, 2014 - 8:11 pm

Hey guys, I’m in the early stages of trying to improve my game and in this spot I would call his 4 bet thinking that I have position and can invest the extra 6 BBs and evaluate the flop. Because I think he could have TT, JJ, KK, AJ and even ATs in his range. Part of my reasoning here is the buy in being so low. I think if an A comes on the flop I am in a good spot and obviously two spades give me an opportunity to bust him. If I don’t like the flop I can fold and still have 27BBs. This is probably a huge leak so really just seeing if there is any argument to flat his 4 bet and continue the hand?

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