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AQo in the BB facing min rr on flop A J 5 ....
SIGABA
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March 23, 2014 - 11:12 pm
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$11 Turbo SuperStack on Bovada, this is the 9th hand played at the 2nd level.  This is the Villain's 3rd hand delt, and only hand played so far = I have no reads.

 

20/40 no antes; everyone has a stack of about 5000 chips (125bb)

 

Villain raise – 80

3 callers

SB folds

Pot = 380

Hero AdiamondQspade in BB – 3bet 277

Villain and other 3 callers call 277

5 players to the flop, Pot = 1405

 

Flop = 5heart Aspade Jheart

 

Hero bets – 555

Villain raises – 1110

Folds around to me, Pot = 3070

 

What's your guy's line here?  Should I have just called preflop, or was the raise ok?  What about my lead on the flop, how's the sizing there?

 

Thanks for the replys!

 

~Steve

jacobsharktank
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March 26, 2014 - 11:10 am
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meh my comment disappeared..

 

okay so yah steve you definitely want to 3bet. we are ahead of the opener's range. we are ahead of each flatter's range. what we're not ahead of is 4 similar ranges against us at once. a 3bet here accomplishes two things i can think of. if you know youll always be called by at least one person with a wider range than AQ, than we know we're value betting, so there's number 1. number 2 is youre thinning the field. a lot of times you're going to whiff the flop and take it down with a cbet. every time you miss and still cbet/win, you're making money from the preflop call. if we only had one caller, you could 3b this small though i'd still probably prefer it to be a little bigger since we start with 125bb. i also learned jordan cristos 3bets massive when 50bb+ and while i haven't heard an explanation for it, that guys not just some donk so there has to be a reason there somewhere. anyway, when you make it 277, it only costs the next person to act 197 chips, and each caller is going to increase % chance that the following player will call as well. i prefer making it more like a pot sized raise, maybe a little shy, in order to get probably the last person to call the original raise to be our only caller, where he'll just fold the flop mostly anyway. if anyone has pairs, they're probably still calling most reasonable 3bets.

 

as played, i think his minraise can't be 55 JJ AA because if he flopped 55 or JJ he'd probably flat the flop unless he's afraid of draws more than he should be and he can't have AA. since we're readless, i'm going to assume he won't raise a set on the flop because most people seem to be aware enough to not do that. i suppose it could be AK but i would think someone with Ak in this spot would 4b, but i don't know if randoms 4b even AK.

that leaves AJ A5s that beat you. AQ seems plausible too trying to prevent low flushes from drawing.

then there's also KQhh, QThh, maybe 34hh 

sorry losing steam on this one haha. not sure what else to say. hope this helps!

Church1ll84
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March 26, 2014 - 5:32 pm
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I'll play devil's advocate on this one since I'm used to doing it in my job. I feel link since it's pre-ante the flop could get a little bloated for an out of possition A high hand. Are we playing it aggresive due to it being a turbo? I'm not an expert in this environment or any for that matter, but 125bb deep with unknown players seems like a suitable spot to flat prelfop and fold on the flop to continue sizing up the table. I could be wrong, but if I only brought a new idea to the table than I guess I did my job. Nice discussion.

 

Church

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March 26, 2014 - 6:09 pm
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I think Balla has the ranges down pretty good.

I might float one card if hero would be on position but OOP would be hard… still might

look the turn to find out what villian does on the turn.

Douggyfr3sh
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March 28, 2014 - 10:45 am
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Hey Steve,

 

I would say we should definitely 3bet pre here 100%.  I think your sizing is OK and I tend to size my 3bets similarly, but I think it's a mistake and a larger 3bet to 320-350+ would be better.  This allows us to get more folds pre and to be HU with initiative more often.  This early in the tournament facing a flop raise I think we should have a very easy fold.  Even if we give the raiser a generously wide range we'd rather just fold here and find better spots.  best case is that villain is spewy aggro and there are some ATs and maybe ATo in that range, and even then that's a small slice of the range and we are behind most of it.  I can see tons of AJ+,JJ,AA, even 55 that villain was priced in to setmine with.  Maybe some Ax hearts and combo draws like QhTh,KhTh possible.

 

Cliffs: 3bet bigger and bet/fold flop

jacobsharktank
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March 28, 2014 - 11:40 am
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the reason i advocate 3betting and doing it bigger isn't so much that it's a turbo, but that we have a stronger hand than the openers range, the flatters' ranges, and we don't do well against all of those combined unless we flop well. by 3betting, we take initative from the opener and likely put it in our hands for postflop. we are bloating the pot with a bigger 3bet, but that's because we have all those flatters in for 2bb who will always call a few more. when we 3bet a little bigger, we get ideally fewer calls and have the betting impetus and can usually take the hand down postflop. when we get raised on that flop, i think more often than anything else it's like AJ, but idk it's sort of hard to flop well haha. but yah, best case is he's spewing. it's bovada and you will see spew, but to expect it as the norm is probably not our best strategy early in a tournament.

SIGABA
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March 29, 2014 - 8:30 pm
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I think you guys are right.  When I made the 3bet at the time, it looked like a big 3bet to me.  But now that I'm standing back, I can see that the 3bet was much smaller than I originally thought.

HowIMetUrRiver
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March 30, 2014 - 3:17 am
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Hey,

the fact that this is a turbo should not play a big part in your decision making atm. you are 125bb deep, period. I don't like 3betting here, even if you make it bigger it is very unlikely you will get it hu, as you guys are very deep and they can play IP deepstacked vs. a very well defined Range. 

On the Flop you get reraised from a guy who still has 3 people behind him to worry about. At best you are looking at a broadway hh combodraw, so I think this is a pretty easy fold and wouldn't feel too exploited here, esp. since you will have sets+ 2pair alot on this flop. 

jasonchr
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March 30, 2014 - 4:23 pm
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jacob/doug,

 

I'm actually with HowIMetUrRiver on this one. I don't really see the point of a 3B here this deep, especially b/c you are going to fold out hands like A10 & A9 that you can get two streets of value from. As played, prob a fold…maybe float one street but there are definitely better spots than this.

SIGABA
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April 6, 2014 - 1:06 am
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I ended up folding.  I checked the HH a couple days later and he had AJo for 2 pair.

theginger45

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April 7, 2014 - 1:14 pm
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I don't like the 3bet preflop, I just can't see any scenario here where this hand turns out great for us unless these players are all super terrible. If we 3bet and get 4bet we have to fold, if we 3bet and get multiple callers out of position it sucks, and even if we 3bet and get one caller out of position it's going to take a very specific board runout for us to get more than one or perhaps two streets of value. Pre-ante with so little in the pot there's just not that much to be gained from making pots bigger in an attempt to get thin value.

If you are going to 3bet, you need to go bigger, because just over 3x is small enough that once one player calls, the rest are getting odds to call. I'd go at least 350 here if I was going to 3bet.

Once you get 4 callers, this is really not the best flop in the world. Your flop sizing is fine, but once you get min-raised in a 5-way 3-bet pot, this is just a snapfold on the flop. You haven't said which player made the raise, although that is relevant. Even so, it's unlikely anyone would do this with too many hearts combos or a weaker ace because of the 5-way nature of the pot, so considering that all the players in the pot have hands like AJ, 55 and A5 in their ranges, this raise looks obscenely strong, and there's just so few easy turn cards for us that it's a very tough hand to play out of position. I don't even mind checking flop for this reason – in a 5-way pot, top pair second kicker is hardly the nuts. We might be better off getting value on future streets.

markconkle
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April 7, 2014 - 5:39 pm
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I don't see why you feel the need to bet this flop.  5-way OOP, I think the only hand I'm leading for value is JJ.  I would check-raise with AA and check-call with AK, AQ.  What worse hands call your bet?  What better hands fold?  I think you'll find the answer to both of these questions is none.

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