June 24, 2012
Poker Stars $10+$1 No Limit Hold'em Tournament – t1500/t3000 Blinds + t300 – 8 players – View hand 2375322
TournamentPokerEdge.com Hand History Converter
UTG: BB = 48.9, t146636
UTG+1: BB = 29.0, t86922
MP1: BB = 25.0, t74970
MP2: BB = 128.3, t385015
CO: BB = 47.7, t143114
BTN: BB = 14.9, t44758
SB: BB = 6.5, t19567
Hero (BB): BB = 23.9, t71695
Pre Flop: (t6900) Hero is BB with A Q
2 folds, MP1 raises to t6000, 4 folds, Hero calls t3000
Flop: (t15900) 9 K 7 (2 players)
Hero checks, MP1 bets t12000, Hero folds
I always have trouble with these situations, playing marginal hands from the blinds when EP or MP raise. Villian is Tag with 17/12 3b 5.0 over 55 hands. I feel that my stack size is too small to 3bet here and too big to shove with. I always seem to end up calling pre and check folding when I miss the flop. What other lines do people take in this situation?
Should I 3bet pre and play AQ oop? Should I shove pre? Donk flop? CR flop? Any thoughts
November 4, 2013
Not that it necessarily makes a huge difference here, but how far along are you in this tounament? Also is it turbo?
I don't know if you are necessarily too low to 3bet here as he made it the minimum raise .. you could probably acquire the information you needed to 3bet/fold (or 3bet/call). If he's TAG I understand suspecting a strong range even from just one early position bet, but I think good TAGs will open up as the game progresses. With AQ I would want to test him out by playing back without commiting my whole stack. I think if I'm feeling confident that is actually what I would do and I would try to make it look convincing. 18,000? If I do this I will fold to his 4bet.
Shoving does not seem wrong either unless you really pick up that he is in a shell. I could see myself doing that if I'm feeling more jammy.
I don't know what the best move is here, but I don't think you are necessarily too big to shove or too small to 3bet.
Good puzzle spot.
June 24, 2012
Its about 10 from the money, its not a turbo and think there was about 300ish players in it. The prize money is not huge and the bubble wasn't that big either, pretty sure he wasn't exploiting the bubble as theres still 10 to go and he'd been pretty tight so far.
The problem with 3betting to 18000 is that if he flats the pot becomes around 40,000 and we have about 50,000 behind, if we c-bet any reasonable amount were nearly pot-commited. So it seems we have to either check fold or shove on the flop and hope he missed.
And the problem with shoving pre-flop is what worse hands is he goin call us with for 24bb jam? Can't see him calling with AJ.
November 4, 2013
Is this a standard bet sizing for him? He's betting that flop pretty heavy… Given our position it sucks to 3b this hand, but you definitely can go with an 18k 3bet and probably fold to his 4b shove.
As played, I would float the flop and see if he shuts down on the turn. You can also check/call flop and represent spades if they get there. I really don't like check/raising flop, because his lead is so big that all c/r will commit your stack. A check/shove looks like you are jamming a spade draw and he might call off semi light(but still have you beat). If he had led for something more like 4500, you could c/r to 12k and then decide from there.
I struggle with this a lot too, all I can offer is it takes practice trying different lines vs different play types. This is a flop he will always continuation bet though, so you can't always be just check folding here. Also, when we shove pre, it isn't about him calling. It's about him folding and us picking up the 13k in the middle. When we do get called, it's a /prayforflipandrunpure
June 24, 2012
OneTime1Time said:
Is this a standard bet sizing for him? He's betting that flop pretty heavy… Given our position it sucks to 3b this hand, but you definitely can go with an 18k 3bet and probably fold to his 4b shove.
As played, I would float the flop and see if he shuts down on the turn. You can also check/call flop and represent spades if they get there. I really don't like check/raising flop, because his lead is so big that all c/r will commit your stack. A check/shove looks like you are jamming a spade draw and he might call off semi light(but still have you beat). If he had led for something more like 4500, you could c/r to 12k and then decide from there.
I struggle with this a lot too, all I can offer is it takes practice trying different lines vs different play types. This is a flop he will always continuation bet though, so you can't always be just check folding here. Also, when we shove pre, it isn't about him calling. It's about him folding and us picking up the 13k in the middle. When we do get called, it's a /prayforflipandrunpure
I'm not sure if its a standard bet size for him, to be honest I never even noticed that he bet so big. I suppose I nearly had my mind made up pre-flop that if I missed I would fold, which is obviously a mistake. I think now that calling is fine pre-fop once I'm not only going to play fit or fold and to defend against some of his standard c-bets. Also I like your comment pointing out that its about him folding pre-flop not neccesarily him calling with worse which I hadn't really thought of.
November 18, 2013
I like the call pre don’t really see how we can continue after big c bet. I think 24 bb is too much to shove if I have 17-18 shove or fold. Villain has nitty stats and vulnerable stack so I can’t see us being in great shape against his range.
I don’t mind shoving so much if the bubble has burst and it’s time to take a stand. Maybe a weak line and against an aggro/maniac I don’t mind a shove but never 3 betting oop unless I’m trying to induce some action with AA KK QQ. Just gets you in trouble IMO
TPE Pro
August 25, 2012
MP vs BB this is a really standard 3bet/call for 24bb here. I think flatting OOP is just wasting the value of the hand since there's so many times when we either c/c flop and fold turn, or just c/f flop.
When we 3bet pre we're not worried about playing OOP, because good players aren't flatting 3bets 25bb effective very often. As long as we 3bet to a size that doesn't give him great odds to flat – so around 16k or so – we'll be fine. We just 3bet and happily call it off.
March 26, 2013
I agree with Ginger that it is a 3b call without a doubt.
A more interesting question for me in this hand is what we want to do when we have 3b and subsequently get called. It happens a lot in low/mid stakes tournaments. Let's say for example we 3bet to 16k as Ginger suggests and villain calls. There is then around 35k in the pot and we have a stack of 58k (around 20bbs territory). So, what do we do then if the above flop comes down?
I am finding more and more that my cbets on both wet and dry boards seem to get attacked a lot whether in position (by villain c/r all-in or c/r committing effectively) or oop (by villain raising / shoving over my cbet).
It becomes a horrible spot when we cbet say 4-5bbs into 11-12bbs and then have to fold to a raise/shove leaving us only 15-16bbs behind and vulnerable. What are the TPE community thoughts on this aspect?
November 18, 2013
MP vs BB this is a really standard 3bet/call for 24bb here. I think flatting OOP is just wasting the value of the hand since there’s so many times when we either c/c flop and fold turn, or just c/f flop.
When we 3bet pre we’re not worried about playing OOP, because good players aren’t flatting 3bets 25bb effective very often. As long as we 3bet to a size that doesn’t give him great odds to flat – so around 16k or so – we’ll be fine. We just 3bet and happily call it off.
I think the ginge nailed it here ” good players aren’t flatting pre with this stack”. Unfortunately bad players are, it’s like a kind of passive resistance that’s really starting to give me the shits. All too often I see awful players sitting on monster stacks simply because they play bad and smash flops. It’s hard to continue in the hand when they just won’t fold 3rd pair or any draw. Maybe it’s a weak line but I like the hand as played and don’t like the 3 bet Cbet line oop leaves us to vulnerable if they shove or worse still flat and we hit our queen or a blank falls.
June 24, 2012
MP vs BB this is a really standard 3bet/call for 24bb here. I think flatting OOP is just wasting the value of the hand since there's so many times when we either c/c flop and fold turn, or just c/f flop.
When we 3bet pre we're not worried about playing OOP, because good players aren't flatting 3bets 25bb effective very often. As long as we 3bet to a size that doesn't give him great odds to flat – so around 16k or so – we'll be fine. We just 3bet and happily call it off.
This hand gets more confusing by the minute!! Why is it a standard 3b call? When we 3bet call we are a 2/1 dog againist his shoving range (TT+, AQo+). His opening range I don't think is that much wider maybe including 88+ and AJ. So when we 3bet call, we fold out the hands that we beat i.e 88-99 and AJ and call against the part of his range that beats us. Its like we allow him to play perfectly against us. I don't know. I'm wondering(not saying you are but..) if you're basing your answer on your experience of playing higher stakes tournaments, where players would be opening wider and therefore the AQ is goin fair a bit better. I sometimes find myself trying to implement a play that I've seen somebody doing on a higher stakes video and it never works at lower stakes. Its like they always have it because there not thinking on the same level as higher stake players and their opening ranges, 3bet calling ranges and 4bet shoving ranges are all different.
October 6, 2010
agree with everyone above, never flatting this, if villain is somewhat likely to flat, then i shove, if he is the type of villain that never flats, then 3b/c
TPE Pro
December 6, 2012
DaKid said:
MP vs BB this is a really standard 3bet/call for 24bb here. I think flatting OOP is just wasting the value of the hand since there's so many times when we either c/c flop and fold turn, or just c/f flop.
When we 3bet pre we're not worried about playing OOP, because good players aren't flatting 3bets 25bb effective very often. As long as we 3bet to a size that doesn't give him great odds to flat – so around 16k or so – we'll be fine. We just 3bet and happily call it off.
This hand gets more confusing by the minute!! Why is it a standard 3b call? When we 3bet call we are a 2/1 dog againist his shoving range (TT+, AQo+). His opening range I don't think is that much wider maybe including 88+ and AJ. So when we 3bet call, we fold out the hands that we beat i.e 88-99 and AJ and call against the part of his range that beats us. Its like we allow him to play perfectly against us. I don't know. I'm wondering(not saying you are but..) if you're basing your answer on your experience of playing higher stakes tournaments, where players would be opening wider and therefore the AQ is goin fair a bit better. I sometimes find myself trying to implement a play that I've seen somebody doing on a higher stakes video and it never works at lower stakes. Its like they always have it because there not thinking on the same level as higher stake players and their opening ranges, 3bet calling ranges and 4bet shoving ranges are all different.
If you're confident his opening range is that narrow, then 3-betting would be a mistake and you played it perfectly. Personally I'd be reluctant to put a guy on such a narrow range, but as you say I don't have a lot of experience in $10 MTTs so I won't tell you you're wrong.
November 18, 2013
Maybe this is symptomatic of lower stakes players like myself ie we are weak tight ???
I still don’t think we are in that great a shape here. What kind of range do the 3/bet/c players here usually encounter in this spot?? Or hope to be good against ??
What will villain do with AJ,AT,KQ and small-mid pairs here ???
May 23, 2013
55 hands isn't really enough to classify his opening range as 88+, AJ. Give the guy KQ/QJ/TJs, he's not going to fold. Give him 55/66/77 he's not going to fold. It could be that in those 55 hands he has been card dead. Try not to overthink the stats and restrict what you do with a strong hand against a MP opener.
It's not always about 3 betting and hoping to be called by worse, there is something to be said for 3 betting against players that will flat some of the higher end of their opening range and fold on flops when they don't hit. Or 3 betting players that will fold hands like 77/88/99.
A 3 bet here doesn't need to be to 18K, make it 14-15k and play accordingly post flop. Remember you will be the 3 better and he'll fold flops he doesn't hit. Your cbet can be equal to your 3 bet on most boards. Or if you want to look strong on dry flops, check shove after 3 betting.
If you'd rather not play this out of position and don't want to fold, I'd rather see you re-ship the 24bb and pick up the pot, then call and check fold most boards. I've re-shipped similar spots before and then the person calls and turns up KQ this is usually after re-jamming a lot and they get sick of it, or they see KQs and decide they can't fold for some odd reason.
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