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November 22, 2013
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HPT Stratosphere main event, $1650 buy-in, late Day 1. Hero around $75K (75BB) with AA under the gun. Blinds are 500, 1000; 100 ante. About 10 hands ago I had won a significant pot where by opponent was on the button and who was stealing %75+ of the time. He raised and I sensed weakness so I 3bet. He 4 bet. I still wasn't convinced so I 5 bet all-in. He thought for a moment and folded. Neither of us showed.
About an orbit later I picked up AA under the gun. I love picking up a big hand soon after an apparent steal bc no one ever gives you credit for a hand. However, though I had been playing LAG I had not yet raised under the gun. I raised to 2500, another LAGgy player in MP 3 bet to 6000, and the button 4 bet to 15000 (basically committing himself as only has around 50K). I thought about flatting for quite some time and trying to get it in on the flop. However, I thought given my image that would be suspicious. I thought a jam would look weaker, like I was trying to steal again. I was also sure that in order to 4 bet the button had to have at least QQ+ or AK and so would call. I'm certain that the MP player was just going to fold, as he was probably trying to resteal with a 3 bet but looked dejected when there was a 4 bet. I'm not at all concerned about what he is going to do, just about what the button will do. I realize that jamming here is fairly obvious, but is calling and trying to getting it in on the flop potentially more value? Or would playing it another way simply be Fancy Play Syndrome? Is there any other way to good way to play this that doesn't involve me just jamming?
November 4, 2013
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Shoving is really best option, although flatting and giving MP great odds to come along isn't horrible. You have to weigh the risk in your head… basically is the 6BB more he's putting the pot worth giving him a chance to suck out. It's possible that if you limp he spazzes out and jams, but that's probably quite unlikey at that level of buy in.
The other problem with limping is, as you said, MP can't be thrilled about being 4bet. Btn should always be pretty much nutted.
Any other options are FPS. Anything you could 5bet and get a MP to call, is going to call a shove.
April 29, 2013
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Zur,
When the action came back to you, there was already 25,900 in the pot. You thought that MP was going to fold no matter what, so let's discount him in the hand. The BTN, after his 4bet, only has 35,000 left. If you shove, it'll cost BTN 35,000 to win 73,400, so he should have no choice but to call b/c of the great pot odds, so I think shoving is best. You're almost (95%+) guaranteed that his full 50,000 will go in pre in this spot.
But, what if you just called? The Pot = 38,400 on the flop, giving BTN a perfect psb (for value or as a bluff depending on the board) with his 35,000 behind. You could check it to him and hope he puts it in. But, if an A or K comes on the flop, that could scare him off and you could miss out on his remaining chips. You could donk the flop no matter what it contains, and hope he calls or shoves over it, but you can't guarantee that he will.
Getting all the chips in the pot pre with AA is the best you can do here I think. Even if you shove and he folds, you're adding 25,900 to your stack which is a 33% increase.
And, if you shove, the MP may read the situation and see that the BTN will call here no matter what because of the odds he's getting. This would give the MP at least 2.5:1 pot odds (44,000 to win 108,400 if he's got a 50,000 stack), so he may call just for the odds.
I shove pre, hope for an MP call and expect a BTN call.
Thanks for the post,
Wacky
November 22, 2013
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Yeah that's what I did. I shoved. They both snap folded without even trying to “Hollywood”.
I guess they both were getting out of line. Adding 25,900 without showdown is a great result, but I was certain at least the button would get it in, and I was a little disappointed because the previous hand had set it up so perfectly.
Thanks for the responses.
April 29, 2013
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What a shame…
November 22, 2013
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I'm beginning to wonder if some of my opponents have some sort of reliable tell on me. I mean in the tourney before this one, someone called me down with just Queen high, no hand/no draw. On this hand, someone who is super committed lays down a hand when I have AA. Not to be results oriented….
March 26, 2013
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I would play it the same way as you did. I think flatting there looks super obvious and there are two things that push me toward a shove as well:
1) 4bets versus the 2 positions raising are usually very strong indeed.
2) His sizing suggests he wants to commit to the pot. I actually think if he is cold 4b bluffing (even if he intends to fold a pretty strong hand) he has to think a lot more about the spot and his own stack in relation to what he has to call if either you or 3b villain jam on him.
I guess maybe this villain found a fold with hands like TT/JJ/AQ after 4b as they really felt you had them nutted (and you did of course). I doubt it is a tell other than the fact a 5b shove from an early position raiser is pretty scary unless you are holding AA/KK yourself as the 4 bettor.
Well played sir and very unlucky that you picked a villain that could either 4b cold as a bluff (without quite the right stack to do it) or 4b fold a pretty strong hand whilst seemingly committed.
November 22, 2013
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Yeah I was actually joking about the tell thing. The caliber of the players in this tourney was just high. HPT events are generally not that tough, but with this being in the Stratosphere it attracted basically all of Vegas's best, tons of former WSOP final tablists, which makes it even more impressive that TPE's very own Cory Waaland got 3rd. I recognized the guy who 4-bet/folded from the WSOP but I can't remember his name so I'm pretty sure he was a good player who laid down QQ or AK, I don't think even a good player would lay down KK here though.
April 29, 2013
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Yeah, maybe. It could also be that your 2.5bb UTG open followed by a 5b shove over a cold 3bet and a cold 4bet smells like too much strength.
Do you think you're showing any classic strength tells; leaning over the table towards the pot, eyeing the opps after your bet, acting meek, over eager to put the chips in the pot, etc?
November 22, 2013
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WackyJuan said:
Yeah, maybe. It could also be that your 2.5bb UTG open followed by a 5b shove over a cold 3bet and a cold 4bet smells like too much strength.
Do you think you're showing any classic strength tells; leaning over the table towards the pot, eyeing the opps after your bet, acting meek, over eager to put the chips in the pot, etc?
I think I actually do have tells, but rather than trying to act weak which is an even bigger tell, I just try to keep calm and do the same thing every hand. I know it annoys the !@!# out of some people but I try to think for at least 15 seconds on every decision I make, even if it is trivial, so that when I do actually have to think it is not just lol obvious. Rather than be an overactor I just try to be stoic.
My wife watches every single hand that I play in live poker and talks to me during the break about my tells. She didn't see any here. But she said she knew I was bluffing when Cong Pham called me all the way down with Queen high. She said my breathing was too rapid. So that's something I def have to work on.
TPE Pro
August 25, 2012
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I wouldn't flat here against thinking players because it looks like you basically always have AA when you do it, but if the villains were somewhat clueless I might consider flatting.
MP's stack size is actually quite important in this hand even though you haven't said what it was. It's the difference between us having a 5betting range here and only having a shove range.
Example: Theoretically, if MP has 75k like us and isn't very good, it's conceivable that in his mind, we could click it back to say, 28k here and fold to his 75k shove, while being prepared to call a shove from the 50k stack because of pot odds. Obviously we would never actually do that, but he could think we might. If he only has 50k however, we can't fold to either of the two stacks if we make it 28k, so shoving looks weaker.
I think shoving is the best play pretty comfortably, but there are times when I'd make it 28k here or just click it back to 24k. It's all player dependent. Flatting is okay as I mentioned but it arguably looks even stronger than 5betting small.
Side note: OP, please don't do that live poker thing where you think for 15 seconds every decision. The fact that you're holding up the game for everyone (not to mention, preventing your table from getting as many hands in per level as other tables) far outweighs any information you might give away. I'm not saying you shouldn't ever take time before folding to make a decision look harder than it was, but if you're literally taking 15 seconds every decision then that's crossing the line. Take your time when other players are actually focused on you because it's an important spot, not when it's preflop and half the table is either engaged in conversation or busy ordering a drink, or in a multiway flop spot in level 2 where there are 6 players in the pot and everyone knows 4 of them are folding.
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