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I felt there was a chance he hit a flush, but also figured I get all his chips if an 8 or 9 hit and he did have the flush.
Poker Stars $2.00 No Limit Hold'em Tournament – t10/t20 Blinds – 6 players
Hand Conversion courtesy of Tournament Poker Edge
TAURUS454 (BB): t3100 155 BBs
mrk2007 (UTG): t2930 146.50 BBs
bestymf (MP): t3000 150 BBs
MiguelCPA (CO): t2910 145.50 BBs
appletons69 (BTN): t2340 117 BBs
Navy KAH (SB): t3860 193 BBs
Pre Flop: (t30) MiguelCPA is CO with 8
9
1 fold, bestymf calls t20, MiguelCPA calls t20, appletons69 calls t20, Navy KAH calls t10, TAURUS454 checks
Flop: (t100) 2
9
8 (5 players)
Navy KAH checks, TAURUS454 bets t40, bestymf folds, MiguelCPA raises to t150, appletons69 calls t150, Navy KAH folds, TAURUS454 calls t110
Turn: (t550) A (3 players)
TAURUS454 checks, MiguelCPA checks, appletons69 bets t340, TAURUS454 folds, MiguelCPA calls t340
River: (t1230) J (2 players)
MiguelCPA checks, appletons69 checks
Final Pot: t1230
MiguelCPA shows 8 9 (two pair, Nines and Eights)
appletons69 shows 6 3 (a flush, Ace high)
appletons69 wins t1230
Pot odds would say fold…you only have four outs or about 8% chance of hitting. That being said there is no guarantee he has a flush on the turn so you have to determine if he has you beat. I can see calling with such deep stacks.
July 3, 2010
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I don't raise the flop. Anyone with a draw is still calling so you're bloating the pot with two cards to come. Not that I don't like our hand… I just tend to wait until the turn and then stick in a large raise to price everyone out of their draws this early in mtt's.
Or if you do elect to raise, raise a lot bigger here. I'd make it slightly over a pot sized raise since there are two types of draws out there and several players in the hand.
Maybe someone still fishes but at least they'd be doing it with the wrong odds.
As played I do click my give up button on the turn. No one should be betting big into 2 people without the flush.
Plus the flop play makes it painfully obvious that appletons69 is chasing hearts. He cold calls a 3 bet on a wet board – that is 95% a flush draw and then 4% a straight draw and then 1% random crap because he's potentially terrible at poker.
June 11, 2010
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For this particular situation I am going to play incredibly cautious. I really and truely hate limped pots and will do as much as I can to avoid playing them all together for just this situation. You are limping in hoping to smash the flop, trouble is you hit hard, but just not quite hard enough and you have absolutely no idea what else is out there and it is going to cost you nothing but chips across a couple of streets to figure it out. With the flop action I have a pretty clear picture that my hand is probably best currently, but there is at least one heart chaser and he isn't going away. Once I understand that much and the third heart hits on the Turn I am out of there. As played I think you managed to lose the minimum, mostly because I think the villain was afraid of a higher Flush when the fourth heart hits. My only advice on this hand is to try to avoid limped pots, they make a mess of everything.
Preflop I don't mind limping behind here when stacks are this deep….you are trying to flop hard and maximize your value from players who can't get away from TPTK or people who chase draws when they aren't supposed to when you smack the flop. On the turn we hit this flop huge and don't want to be afraid of the draw but yet realize more then likely after the flop action appleton or taurus are on the heart draw a super large percentage of the time. I like your flop raise here because you want to build a pot with your big hand as well as make draws pay to see the turn. I raise more on flop prob to 200 or so. On Turn I go ahead and fold…..really are beating nothing or next to nothing at this point and we aren't getting the right pot/implied odds to hit our boat on the river.
Cougars4444 said:
Preflop I don't mind limping behind here when stacks are this deep….you are trying to flop hard and maximize your value from players who can't get away from TPTK or people who chase draws when they aren't supposed to when you smack the flop. On the turn we hit this flop huge and don't want to be afraid of the draw but yet realize more then likely after the flop action appleton or taurus are on the heart draw a super large percentage of the time. I like your flop raise here because you want to build a pot with your big hand as well as make draws pay to see the turn. I raise more on flop prob to 200 or so. On Turn I go ahead and fold…..really are beating nothing or next to nothing at this point and we aren't getting the right pot/implied odds to hit our boat on the river.
Cougars do you believe if he opens this pot maybe to 60 or 80. That this guy with the 63hh trashes his hand?
Its hard to tell since its a scratch off donkament ticket but I say open and then raise the flop.
As played tho, donks in the micros love suited cards dont matter the cards. This hand is a clear representation. So if you want to play cheaply before the flop, try to play it cheaply after the flop. With 3 other ppl in the pot, im pretty sure some1 is drawing to a flush or straight and more than likely they will pay to get there. This is just imo which can be flawed.
BBird40 said:
Cougars4444 said:
Preflop I don't mind limping behind here when stacks are this deep….you are trying to flop hard and maximize your value from players who can't get away from TPTK or people who chase draws when they aren't supposed to when you smack the flop. On the turn we hit this flop huge and don't want to be afraid of the draw but yet realize more then likely after the flop action appleton or taurus are on the heart draw a super large percentage of the time. I like your flop raise here because you want to build a pot with your big hand as well as make draws pay to see the turn. I raise more on flop prob to 200 or so. On Turn I go ahead and fold…..really are beating nothing or next to nothing at this point and we aren't getting the right pot/implied odds to hit our boat on the river.
Cougars do you believe if he opens this pot maybe to 60 or 80. That this guy with the 63hh trashes his hand?
Its hard to tell since its a scratch off donkament ticket but I say open and then raise the flop.
As played tho, donks in the micros love suited cards dont matter the cards. This hand is a clear representation. So if you want to play cheaply before the flop, try to play it cheaply after the flop. With 3 other ppl in the pot, im pretty sure some1 is drawing to a flush or straight and more than likely they will pay to get there. This is just imo which can be flawed.
I think if we raise to 60 or 80 that the guy will possibly fold but it's hard to tell as for sure as everyone is over 117bbs deep and most people aren't going to fold suited cards that deepstacked in a $2 tourney. At the same time I don't think raising here is bad at all and thins the field and gives us opportunities to represent a different range when we smack this flop hard. I think the only bad play preflop is folding this deepstacked. There are merits to both limping behind and raising…..another thing to think about is if we raise and get 3b depending on sizing we are prob going to be folding a large % of the time or playing a 3b pot oop with 89dd.
I disagree with trying to play it cheaply after the flop…..we limp behind with these types of hands in early stages of tourneys to try and hit flops big and win large pots. Of course when we do hit big on a wet board like this we want to give our opponents the wrong price to try and hit their draws. So we want to build a pot and make them put money into the pot when they aren't getting the right price. Also, we want to be good enough to fold when we are beat. If we think our opponent is on a draw and think they are going to pay to get there its most optimal to make them put money in the pot getting the wrong odds. The goal is always to make our opponents make as many mistakes as possible and this is one way to do.
We want to get them to call with draws when they aren't getting the proper odds to do so.
Thanks everyone for the responses. I def hate my turn call at this point.
Cougars, just to follow up on the flop raise sizing, I was thinking a pot sized raise would do the trick. He's gotta call 110 for a pot of 290, or 2.6-1. He's about 19% to hit his flush on the turn, or a 4-1 dog (There's no guarantee he gets to see the river for free, which is why I didn't include the % for two cards to come). If he misses the turn, I'm certainly charging him to draw again, prob around 400-450. I guess my question is do we want him to fold when we have him crushed? It's such a fine line between betting the right amount to get him to call and make a mistake, or blowing him off the hand.
You had suggested a flop raise of around 200 which would have given him around 2-1 instead of 2.6-1. Are you thinking more about the odds you are laying him (meaning offering 2-1 is better than 2.6-1) or getting more chips in the pot if you were in my spot? I'm not sure I'm asking this correctly so I'll pose the question another way. Is getting him to make a mistake that he can call better than giving him a chance to fold even if he ends up drawing out?
Cougars4444 said:
I disagree with trying to play it cheaply after the flop…..we limp behind with these types of hands in early stages of tourneys to try and hit flops big and win large pots. Of course when we do hit big on a wet board like this we want to give our opponents the wrong price to try and hit their draws. So we want to build a pot and make them put money into the pot when they aren't getting the right price. Also, we want to be good enough to fold when we are beat. If we think our opponent is on a draw and think they are going to pay to get there its most optimal to make them put money in the pot getting the wrong odds. The goal is always to make our opponents make as many mistakes as possible and this is one way to do.
We want to get them to call with draws when they aren't getting the proper odds to do so.
See this is my problem. I got alot of friends say that I lack confidence when I play and they believe I play well. Tbh, I believe I play like crap and I am just waiting to get screwed on this type of hand on this type of board. That is why philosophy to keep it small. I know that if he hits I am gonna be pissed and sometimes be able to fold and sometimes be too stubborn and call.
Another mindset of mine is this: In real life I horde my money and my stuff. I make my stuff last, get every penny's worth. I bring that same attitude to the tables and I hate losing chips, if I raise this flop and then muck on the turn, back in the day, I would get pissed b/c I felt like I was spewy. Now Im trying to learn that the chips are not a source of money, they are ammo and you can always reload on ammo…
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