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February 5, 2015
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Ok so do not fear…it is pretty straightforward.
I had a 24bb stack UTG with 7 7. I raise 2x.
Villain 1 in UTG+1, with 12 bb stack 3bet shoves.
(Villain 2 in MP, with 4 bb stack, calls).
Forgive me if the maths isn’t exactly spot on, but I remember I was getting 2.2-1 or something.
I am watching a Ben Reasons video at the time where he is talking about a totally different spot but it has some similarities, so I make the call. I instantly hate myself, as I had some momentum there going for me.
I play alot of 180 sng’s, and I know the regs are always calling off with middle pairs vs. shoves. I have never been sure of the right plays with middling pairs as a call vs. a shove.
My thinking at the time was that I was getting over 2-1, so I should call. I just feel that with 7 7 I am behind or flipping too often in a situation where I really didn’t need to.
The verdict please? Was the call ok or really bad? I went down the toilet pretty soon after.
February 5, 2015
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Sorry I should have said…
It was a midweek Big 11 on Stars, ITM with 250 remaining.
TPE Pro
December 6, 2012
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Sounds close but reasonable. Why don’t you try putting both players on ranges and see what your equity looks like. If it’s close, experiment with a different ranges: does the answer change if we make SB wider or narrower? What about BB?
Remember that you’ll need to consider equity against SB only in the sidepot,and against BB in the main pot.
February 5, 2015
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Also I cant think why I thought I had alot of momentum with 24 bigs. I think I’d just doubled up or something
February 5, 2015
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Sorry Andrew I hadn’t seen your reply. This is going to sound absolutely absurd to most everyone here, but in fact it is a question I had in any case, so why not?
As a SNG player for years I have been very happy with SNG wizard for my push fold game. But as I play more MTTs I feel its not enough. You say to play around with the ranges. What software would I need for this? HRC? While we are at it, what software should I invest in tomorrow if I am serious about being competitive in MTTs. I know it is somewhat off topic, but just a couple ideas is all.
My guess is HRC (and maybe CREV).
Many thanks.
February 5, 2015
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Sorry Andrew I never saw your post.
Which software should I invest in for this? HRC?
February 5, 2015
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Ahh…the software is playing up with my posts. Maybe my sub is up. Sorry Andrew I hadn’t seen your post there.
Which software should I invest in for this? I am way behind the times I know with SNGwiz and Snowie. No disrespect to either, but as I move from SNGs to MTTs I’d like to know what I should invest in. HRC I expect?
February 5, 2015
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LOL now the thing finds all my posts. Im not going mad…the thing was playing up!
November 18, 2014
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I think calling or folding on this spot is more than to ITM considerations than any other thing but one thing I’ve managed to get used on this situations when I raise ~20BB is to actually have a look at the stacks and stats of other players and decide what I’m going to do for each of them before raising (that’s something I got used to doing after watching the videos on this site).
So, before raising (specially UTG), I would decide if I’m calling a shove from UTG+1 … down to the BB depending on the moment of the tourney and the stats of the villain (plus any notes he may have). In this spot the 4BB call is just added equity to the pot but the real question is whether you were willing to call that villain or not. I think you’re going to be either flipping or way behind most of the time so I don’t dislike a fold if you think you can actually exploit the table at some other spots.
In any case I still thing the ITM considerations are most important. Are your 20BBs average stack? Are your 20BB a big or a small stack at that point? Are you in the money, in the bubble, fighting for a pay jump? Depending on those the decision changes. If your stack is bellow average and you’re looking for spots to gamble and double up to cash in the tournament then that’s definitively a good spot. If you have a average stack and you are in the bubble then I’ll probably fold to a reshove in the bubble that halves our stack.
I don’t think this particular situation is resolved only by looking at equity and stack size but more of a table dynamic and ITM considerations.
TPE Pro
December 6, 2012
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Good advice from Chaos about planning before you raise (not that I’d have a plan for this exact action).
All you need for what I’m suggesting is an equity calculator. There are free ones like Equilab available.
February 5, 2015
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Thank you guys. Geez, I really should probably be making much better use of this forum. I get loads of spots where I am unsure. Great stuff!
You know chaos, the funny thing is, when I am playing in my regular “bread and butter” games ($8/$15 180 turbos on Stars…the only games I am profitable in!), I actually do what you suggest…decide before I move who I will be willing to call if I shove, who I will be committed to etc., but sometimes in MTT’s I find myself out of my comfort zone somehow. Which is really silly when I am within the 1-30 bb stage... because that should be my comfort zone! I well know who the other 180 man regs are to a man, and I only occasionally find myself at an MTT table with those guys. I know alot of MTT regs are also competent in this stage, but really, as a winning player in those 180 mans I feel I should surely have some kind of edge over an average field when 1-30 bb’s deep!
In so far as ICM is concerned… well, it is always a consideration for sure…( I have been studying Kill Everyone, and I know the “bubble factor” in an MTT is always> 1.0). But as I stated in my 2nd post, I was ITM with approx. 250 players left. It is true there were pay jumps every 80 players or so, but I do not feel it was a particularly high ICM spot.
And this is what particularly upsets me. This was not a turbo. I had an average-ish stack. I did not need to take a flip there. Maybe in a turbo I can see the value, but I really feel I should’ve waited for a better spot.
Well we live and learn I suppose. It’s funny, my daughter takes an interest in poker (she is 7 and I am training her up. Will I go to jail if I say that she takes over if I go to the shop for 5mins? Probably…so therefore its not true). But I said to her once that “Daddy will get there one day”. She replied “What? When you’re 60?”. I went on depression-tilt that night.
Andrew, I use Poker Stove, but I never knew there were free equity calculators in which you could put range v range. I shall take a look. Is HRC a good investment?
Many thanks guys…sorry for the confusion with my missing posts!
TPE Pro
December 6, 2012
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Yes, concerning HRC. And it’s been a while since I’ve used it, but I’m pretty sure you can do range vs range with Stove.
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