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AK Shove?
macrlh
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March 28, 2011 - 12:22 pm
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My wife was playing this hand and I “coached” (told) her to shove.  I've run the hand through the TPE_EV_Calculator and at a villian call range of 10%, the play appears to be -EV.  But it stills seems like a no-brainer shove given the situation.  What does someone who has a brain think?

 

Full Tilt Poker $1 + $0.20 No Limit Hold'em Tournament – t100/t200 Blinds – 5 players
TournamentPokerEdge.com Hand History Converter

twinkykiller76 (CO): t3810 19.05 BBs
Queen Maev (BTN): t2420 12.10 BBs
cj2701 (SB): t1105 5.53 BBs
brittanyrc (BB): t5035 25.18 BBs
rel1979 (UTG): t1130 5.65 BBs

Pre Flop: (t300) Queen Maev is BTN with A of clubs K of spades
rel1979 raises to t400, 1 fold, Queen Maev raises to t2420 all in, 2 folds, rel1979 calls t730 all in

Wein
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March 28, 2011 - 12:43 pm
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shove here and be confident.  AK is way ahead of his opening range.

Wein
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March 28, 2011 - 12:43 pm
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shove here and be confident.  AK is way ahead of his opening range.

Wein
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March 28, 2011 - 12:43 pm
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shove here and be confident.  AK is way ahead of his opening range.

lespaulgman
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March 28, 2011 - 12:48 pm
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This is a jam all day long and twice on Sunday. Rip it in with authority.

slimb0
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March 28, 2011 - 12:53 pm
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I'm playing around with this as well and it seems to be a -EV shove

Pot = 700

Your stack= 2420

BB=200

Effective stack= 1130 (We put the effective stack of our opponent we are 3bet shoving on right? Assuming everyone else in the hand folds even though the effective stack would change if they call)

Open Range %= 10

Opener Call %=10

(Based on his stack size and position can be pretty confident that hes calling his entire range that opens here so you should be called 100% of the time.)

Win %= 58

lose %= 42%

 

It appears that the EV of a shove is 2259 and EV of a fold is 2420 and the

NET EV of a shove = -161.

 

Is it because a 10% opening/calling range is so tight and doesn't include enough Ax rag combs that it makes -EV to shove here? Interested in finding out why this is a -EV shove because its a nobrainer shove for myself as well. I feel like im entering the data wrong somehow.

macrlh
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March 28, 2011 - 1:51 pm
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Thanks for the input guys.  She lost the hand of course and still kinda hates me.

emb
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April 1, 2011 - 3:55 pm
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I'm not sure how you arrive at the above but it seems a +ev shove to me.

Consider the 3 possibilities (assuming no action from the blinds and that he never folds):

 

1.a  You shove and win

This happens ~58% of the time if you stick to your assumed 10% range

When it does you pick up his 1130 plus the blinds of 300 so you end up with 3850.

 

1.b  You shove and lose

You lose 1130 so you end up with 1290 (42% of the time)

So when you shove, on average you end up with (3840*0.58)+(1290*0.42) which by my reckoning is 2774

So a call is +354 ev

 

2.  You fold

Your stack is unchanged so by definition this is 0 ev

Hence, easy shove.  Hope this helps your wife to forgive you 🙂

 

Alternatively you can use a less rigorous mathematical approach: 12BB + AK = shove

 

emb

 

wilmont
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April 1, 2011 - 4:30 pm
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emb said:

I'm not sure how you arrive at the above but it seems a +ev shove to me.

Consider the 3 possibilities (assuming no action from the blinds and that he never folds):

 

1.a  You shove and win

This happens ~58% of the time if you stick to your assumed 10% range

When it does you pick up his 1130 plus the blinds of 300 so you end up with 3850.

 

1.b  You shove and lose

You lose 1130 so you end up with 1290 (42% of the time)

So when you shove, on average you end up with (3840*0.58)+(1290*0.42) which by my reckoning is 2774

So a call is +354 ev

 

2.  You fold

Your stack is unchanged so by definition this is 0 ev

Hence, easy shove.  Hope this helps your wife to forgive you 🙂

 

Alternatively you can use a less rigorous mathematical approach: 12BB + AK = shove

 

emb

 

Can't see not shoving here. With 12bb what other hand are you waiting for? If your waiting for AA-QQ you will probably blind down to nothing.

Not saying, just saying. laugh

bennymacca
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April 3, 2011 - 9:39 pm
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wilmont said:

Alternatively you can use a less rigorous mathematical approach: 12BB + AK = shove

 

lol love it (and i think you are 100% correct)

cousteer
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April 3, 2011 - 10:58 pm
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In my experience… 'coaching' your missus is massive -EV!

No1uNo
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April 4, 2011 - 10:04 am
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We may need to add “talking to wife” to our range of -EV plays.

kingten102
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April 4, 2011 - 4:21 pm
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easy shove.

 

Side Note: i'm reporting you for collusion. 

 

j/k, but seriously….

FkCoolers
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April 4, 2011 - 5:36 pm
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Easy shove.

When she gives you crap just say “cooler spot, brah” and walk away. She’ll figure it out eventually.

Schizoid
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April 6, 2011 - 9:16 am
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hmm why is shoving AK into a short stack with 6 bb a -ev play? his raise calling range is extremely wide and we're holding premium.

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RonFezBuddy
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April 6, 2011 - 10:23 am
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Hey sorry, just saw this.  The looks like the spreadsheet has a problem with the resteal calcs if you actually cover the villian.  I will look at the formulas to resolve this.  If you manually plug in what your stack is if you shove and win, according to emb's math above, it's a +EV play.

Hagbard Celine
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April 6, 2011 - 12:12 pm
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wein nailed it in all THREE of his posts.

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