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AJs ICM spot, UB $40 7.5kgtd
andinista
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April 5, 2011 - 3:45 pm
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Absolute/UB Cereus Hold'em, t12.00 BB (8 handed) – Absolute/UB Cer Hand Converter from HandHistoryConverter.com

Edit with more table info: Table is fresh, but from what I can see noone is 3-betting light and people are trying to move up in the money. I've been active recently at last table.

Blinds 6k/12k antes 1200

Button (t295313)
SB (t205351)
BB (t498982)
UTG (t129622)
Hero (UTG+1) (t195644)
MP1 (t165423)
MP2 (t157545)
CO (t117120)

Preflop: Hero is UTG+1 with J[Image Can Not Be Found], A[Image Can Not Be Found]
1 fold, [color=#CC3333]Hero….

UltimateBet Tournament #6100578
Start Time: 2011-04-03 18:00:00 (ET)
1: payout $3530.00, 
2: payout $2139.18, 
3: payout $1482.60, 
4: payout $1094.30, 
5: payout $917.80, 
6: payout $741.30, 
7: payout $600.10, 
8: payout $458.90,

bennymacca
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April 5, 2011 - 8:36 pm
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i think we are deep enough still to raise-fold

Eske
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April 6, 2011 - 4:54 am
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With 16BB I would hate to raise/fold. Especially in relation to all the 3bet push stacks behind. Then I rather just push it in. That is a +cEV move, but I doupt that it is +$EV.  I have not made ​​the calculations, but I think that according to ICM, it is a fold. There are just to many left behind to act and stacks are too shallow.

Hagbard Celine
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April 6, 2011 - 12:26 pm
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plugging this into holdem resources, it's a +$EV shove: HoldemResources.net Results

 

although that could change depending on the players left to act. like if you think there are players behind who are going to be calling really wide it might make this a fold, but i kind of doubt it.

 

if the table is super weak, and people aren't prone to 3bet light, then raise/fold could be better than shoving.

 

hard to say with the info given what's best.

andinista
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April 6, 2011 - 1:53 pm
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Hagbard Celine said:

 

if the table is super weak, and people aren't prone to 3bet light, then raise/fold could be better than shoving.

 

I definitely felt like the table would not be 3-betting light at this point, and certain players would be folding to shove w AQ or 99- so yeah, weak.

Can I really really raise/fold to a single reraise with this stack size? Its not a part of my current game, but my buddy who is a sng baller says some good regs are raise/folding 7-10BB stacks. Doesn't the Big Dog tell us in every vid how bad it is to open/fold under 15BBs? I need some insight into this, related to spots like this where payjumps are huge.

Hagbard Celine
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April 6, 2011 - 3:14 pm
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i'd imagine that when casey says that he's in some HSMTT where restealing ranges are wide and raising a 15BB stack with the intention of folding is exploitable.

 

but to say that raise/folding a 15BB stack is bad period is just wrong, because i can very easily come up with a scenario where it isn't–i.e. we open AQs with 15BB and the biggest nit on earth shoves and we range him at KK+, then obviously calling would be bad.

 

i mean do the cEV calcs on raise/calling vs a range of like 88+, AQ and see if it's even +cEV. if it is, tweak the range to see where it becomes -cEV. keep in mind that with ICM you need higher equity to call it off, and make an educated guess as to whether it's more profitable to shove, raise/fold or raise/call here.

andinista
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April 14, 2011 - 2:13 pm
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yeah HC, I've finally grasped this concept past week, and am finding spots where I raise/fold shallower. An additional distinction seems to be whether or not we are deep into the money. 

So, continuing with this topic just a litttle further: How low can I can I go with stack size raise/folding? i.e., the above AQ scanerio vs. nit, can I min raise/fold a 12 BB stack at a FT?

BuddhaX
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April 14, 2011 - 2:52 pm
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From UTG Im limp folding this to any real raises. You’re hand is strong but you are OOP under 20BB If a raise comes and the player seems light I may consider 3bet shove otherwise it’s a fold.

bennymacca
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April 14, 2011 - 6:40 pm
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Limping is the absolute worst thing you can do, thinking Players will jam on you so often it’s not funny. To be honest I think it’s a massive leak to ever be limping here

KingBustYou
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April 14, 2011 - 7:03 pm
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I believe since the whole table is pretty shallow and its the ft of a small buy tourny where more players are waiting to jump in prizes, minraising utg looks very strong and you'll pick up the blinds quite a lot as even the 'big' stack(s) wouldnt like to play back light and possibly get crippled or loose half their stack. If you get played back at it has to be something like 99+, AQ+ and even some of those hands will fold trying to creep up. So i see a lot of merrit in minraising here and folding if anybody reshoves, which wont happen that often.

bennymacca
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April 14, 2011 - 8:25 pm
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KingBustYou said:

I believe since the whole table is pretty shallow and its the ft of a small buy tourny where more players are waiting to jump in prizes, minraising utg looks very strong and you'll pick up the blinds quite a lot as even the 'big' stack(s) wouldnt like to play back light and possibly get crippled or loose half their stack. If you get played back at it has to be something like 99+, AQ+ and even some of those hands will fold trying to creep up. So i see a lot of merrit in minraising here and folding if anybody reshoves, which wont happen that often.

yeah this is pretty much my exact thinking, i should have elaborated in my earlier post. 
hapetimes
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April 15, 2011 - 7:50 am
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if this is a +$EV play im guessing it is marginal

1 thing that ICM or end game tools dont take into account is future spots for hero

In this situation you have 3 short stacks to your left

Therefore you will almost certainly have future spots that are unexploitable from an ICM perspective

i agree with eske, id hate to raise fold here, and preserving FE would be beneficial

id open fold

Hagbard Celine
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April 18, 2011 - 11:02 am
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andinista said:

yeah HC, I've finally grasped this concept past week, and am finding spots where I raise/fold shallower. An additional distinction seems to be whether or not we are deep into the money. 

So, continuing with this topic just a litttle further: How low can I can I go with stack size raise/folding? i.e., the above AQ scanerio vs. nit, can I min raise/fold a 12 BB stack at a FT?

sorry to abandon this thread.

 

i mean, play with the situation. you'll see players like dipthrong raise/fold a 10BB stack. it just depends on the situation. if players behind you are shoving super tight it might be wrong to raise call even 12BB against them, etc. it's really hard to talk about it generally, just a matter of finding spots like these and then breaking them down, and playing with ranges to see what's best given different circumstances and then allowing that work to inform your decisions at the tables.

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