i think i like clicking it back here to see what the utg limper does.  it risks minimal amount of chips to iso the short stack and utg would have to have a hand to play.  if he flats we cbet most flops and can win or if he raises we have an easy fold i think. 

Thanks guys.

I really don't want to play oop with a big pot.

I though I was on BB, else I prefer to fold there (or shove but not so often).

Good decision?

lespaulgman said:

We have a blocker to some of the hands he could be doing this with (AA and AK become less likely with your Ace)

I really like that…

i don't get here how a shove is better when the utg is only calling a shove with better A hands and big pockets that we are probably drawing to 3 cards.  he would be flatting a click back with worse A hands and passibley AQ and pairs under TT lookng for a safe flop.  also i think a click back is enough chips to iso the short stack in most cases here risking minimal chips.  if he makes a move on us cause he thinks we are a passive player then he still has to show the hand cause there is an all in and i believe most players don't want to show a bluffing hand in this spot which leaves just the upper part of his range he would be shoving with.  also if he flats here i think he would be folding to lots of cbets on lots of flops.  i would not mind playing the pot oop we can cbet small on most flops and win it or fold to any resistence.  i dont agree with a shove here unless the limper had been open limping a lot of pots prior why shove if all that is calling us is most likely crushing us.

whats passive about a 3 bet though.  how many players are really going to be reshoving on you here with a wide range?  how  many players are going to be reshoving here with on a bluff?  plus how would you be playing aces here or  hands you want actuion from.  i just think if you get outplayed for 6 bb's a minimal amount of times is better then getting outplayed for 23 bbs the same amount of time.  i prefer folding to shoving here i think.  if there was no limper i say shove all day but the limper changes the pot.  i think by your thought process you might as well be shoving any ace cause you have a blocker and i definitely dont like that.  and noone seems to think about the player being all in and how that can change peoples play.  most players are not going to think your click back is weak here.  utg limper short stack shove and sb click back looks pretty strong to me.  it just feels like you want to shove cause you have AJ and not think about the whole hand.

so why risk your whole stack then when you can just as easily iso the shorti with a click back?

Agree Les! Call here and your giving UTG like 5 to 1 to call. I think an iso raise to like $15999 does everthing you want it to do. It tells UTG you are not afraid of him or the allin, and it screws up his odds. If UTG snap calls or reshoves, than you know he has a monster and you can still get away from the hand without loosing all your chips.

lespaulgman said:

sm9145 said:

so why risk your whole stack then when you can just as easily iso the shorti with a click back?

The point you are missing is that the click back is an exploitable move. If you are 3betting like this, you might as well not bother, you aren't doing anything to isolate. If you use this move you actually giving the UTG player fantastic odds to at the least call and peel a flop, if not come over the top of you move with anything because your hand looks weak. All this move results in are lousy spots for you. Then what are you going to do, you end up with a flop and are going to fold if you don't like it? This is just an incredibly bad line. If you are going to 3bet, do it. Make sure the other player knows your hand is strong and price him into making a mistake. By clicking back you are giving him an opportunity to play perfectly, which is exactly what you don't want.

the limpers stats are 16/14 so he raises most pots he comes into.  now he limps with a 23 bb stack utg seems a little odd.  you still have not pointed out how this line looks weak.  just think about it a player raises almost every pot they play then limps utg with 23 bb's short stack shoves which is irrelevant really to the hand then you raise to 12,880 looks like you have a hand that wants action which narrows his range of hands he can play.  if he shoves with rags he is purely guessing.  if you shove i think your range looks weaker here leaving smaller pairs to call believing they are in a flip situation. if you click back and he shoves he has to show the hand and we fold leaving ourselves with a 20 bb's stack and if he shoves and is light we get good info that he will be calling our 20 bb shoves light and and if he has a monster we saved our tourney.  i think almost everything is a win win played this way.  if he flats i know he is only calling a cbet with a hand so we give up after that.  

are you shoving AA here? 

i don't think a shove is completely horrible here i just think we can play it a lil better

the odds are just a lil over 3:1 i don't know why people keep saying 5:1.  he has 23 bb stack so flatting really shouldn't be an option for him here if he does flat he has made a mistake already.  which if he makes that mistake then i am fine with playing the pot out of position.  If your play is to consistently shove here then i guess your play is fine for you but its not for me and cause i am not shoving my whole playing range here.  if you think that i am fiolding a lot of flops when he calls ip then you dont understand at all he will be folding most of the time.  i think for tourney strategy i am willing to be bluffed here once in awhile (you seem to think it is all the time but i highly doubt it) in order to hang around a lil longer.  also a 20 bb stack is fine with me i have all my lp hands coming up and i am not sweating my stack size yet.  also i dont think you take into account all the info in the hand and rely more on your holdings then anything.