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This spot is from a live WSOP 7pm Deepstack I played recently. It seemed standard to me, but I would be interested feedback. The money bubble had just burst w 28 players, and I had been playing pretty aggressively and getting a few hands. I had one of the larger stacks at the table, but still only 22-24 bb-I don't remember exactly. Player just to my right ships about 14-16 bb and I look down at AJ off. I can recall no particular read on this guy. Thinking I was likely ahead I isolate. It seemed standard, but I have been thinking about ICM and weather I should have waited for a better spot. Min cash was about 350 and 1st was about 8K. Your thoughts are appreciated.
what were both of your positions?
things i would think about are;
– the jammers position
– any micro stacks behind us
– his image and our image
– are the 2 players directly to my left competent?
the later he is the wider i would call
the more micro stacks behind, the tighter i would call
the looser he is the wider i call
weak players to my left make me less inclined to call an all in ahead of me
so; against a random unknown player i would call this shove if he shoved from MP or later, if he was loose, if everyone had a standard stack, and less likely if the 2 players to my left are at least weak or incompetent
the last reason is b/c weaker players are less inclined to call with an appropriate range when someone shoves into them (they fold more than they should) – a mistake that we can take advantage of.
Hape- thanks for your input. He was mp or mp+1 and I was directly to his left- no reshove or micro stacks to my left. My impression was that he was competent- play had been fairly tight around the bubble. I got in against K10 and lost the race. I guess I was wondering if I should’ve waited for a spot to shove when folded to, or would that have been overly tight. I think maybe I amjust being results oriented.
With only 22-24 blinds..i'm always iso'ing here if I believe i'm ahead of this guy's range. I may have to rethink what i'm doin if i'm say between 30-35 blinds as I have an average stack at this stage of the mtt, then I really have to be confident with his range to iso. Cause I wouldn't want to go from a healthier stack at this stage to just a reshove stack if i lose.
with the info you gave i'll iso all the time
i'd say an average dude in MP just after the bubble has burst holding 15bb's will shove (most pairs, A7s+,K9s+,QTs) something like that anyway. He's ITM and has an opportunity to chip up and also double up and have a shot at getting deeper.
Basically he's shoving a lot of hands that we dominate so it's an easy iso
i think readless in a live setting this is a fold. if he were shoving a smaller stack i'd be more inclined to shove, but i think 14-16BB is a tad on the large side.
plus, being MP2, we have over half the table to get through.
just a querie hagbard
what range would you assign to this villain here that would make it a fold?
or are we taking more into account the fact that we have 4 people still to go through?
also i havent had very much experience in this live setting, how does this change push call ranges for weaker and stronger players?
do weaker players push tighter ranges? or are all players tighter?
Thanks for the input Hagbard- I was beginning to think this after the fact, but I thought I was just being results oriented. It was late, I was a bit tired, and although I felt fairly sure I was ahead of his range, I think I could have found a better spot at this stage of the tournament.
you can't apply ICM to much at this point of the tourney. However It's a clear fold. I mean sure he will jam A8s+ but he's range is crushing yours pretty hard. Espec with so many left behind to act. And you said that you'r stack was one of the biggest of the table, that means he had a bit below AVG? Maybe even AVG? Clear fold anyway =) GL
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this is alot closer than meets the eye. This can go either way, online i snap reship iso but live its alot closer as the 15 bb stack is almost a 20-24 bb stack live compareitively speaking. Id prolly go here in this spot but i will say that this is my fence as A10 i fold and AQ is go time.
hapetimes said:
just a querie hagbard
what range would you assign to this villain here that would make it a fold?
or are we taking more into account the fact that we have 4 people still to go through?
also i havent had very much experience in this live setting, how does this change push call ranges for weaker and stronger players?
do weaker players push tighter ranges? or are all players tighter?
i'd imagine his range is a lot of small-medium pairs–maybe some bigger pairs–and then big cards. we're doing OK against his range, but we have several players to get through and we have to jam ~25BB into them. if we were BTN or in the blinds then i'd probably go with it.
kuckel said:
you can't apply ICM to much at this point of the tourney. However It's a clear fold. I mean sure he will jam A8s+ but he's range is crushing yours pretty hard. Espec with so many left behind to act. And you said that you'r stack was one of the biggest of the table, that means he had a bit below AVG? Maybe even AVG? Clear fold anyway =) GL
I disagree that this is a 'clear' fold and also, A8s+ range would include a heap of broadways and smaller pairs – this does NOT crush AJ pretty hard
The things we take into account here are many, and the other significant thing from the pro's view is the difference between live and online play. I'm not sure all the rest of us have the experience of the pro's in either arena. So the only thing that is 'clear' here is that our decision is not a 'clear' one if that makes any sense.
Thanks for the reply hagbard – guess despite our hand playing ok against his percieved range there are other factors which could push a toward a fold.
Very insightful with regard to the live/online differences.
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