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November 8, 2010
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Hi, I'm a new member here and this is my first HH post. I am waiting to deposit money on Stars and in the meantime, can only play $0.10 tournaments but at least I can try out some concepts I've read/heard/seen on TPE in my first couple of days.
Having listened to the first podcast I am increasingly unsure of my bet sizing – I am sure it is a big leak in my game. In the past I think I have bet too big and therefore not got the max value from my hands. In the hand below I decided to try to decrease my post flop bet and the bet on the turn was sized so as to create a pot equal to my remainin stack (a la the podcast).
Would be interested to get comments on the bet-sizing – it's a turbo tourney so I think it's an ok raise pre-flop and I didn't put the villain on a big ace.
Poker Stars $0.10 No Limit Hold'em Tournament – t100/t200 Blinds – 8 players
TournamentPokerEdge.com Hand History Converter
hervai16 (SB): t4740 23.70 BBs
Bro_PT (BB): t5315 26.57 BBs
beluchi23 (UTG): t4735 23.68 BBs
mauiua (UTG+1): t4235 21.18 BBs
Hero (MP1): t4280 21.40 BBs
sakaulias (MP2): t4315 21.57 BBs
sunc470 (CO): t1550 7.75 BBs
Chachi_A25 (BTN): t2865 14.32 BBs
Pre Flop: (t300) Hero is MP1 with A
9
2 folds, Hero raises to t400, 3 folds, hervai16 calls t300, Bro_PT calls t200
Flop: (t1200) 6 K
A
(3 players)
hervai16 checks, Bro_PT checks, Hero bets t550, hervai16 calls t550, Bro_PT folds
Turn: (t2300) 8
(2 players)
hervai16 checks, Hero bets t700, hervai16 calls t700
River: (t3700) 5 (2 players)
hervai16 checks, Hero bets t2630 all in, hervai16 calls t2630
I like the flop bet size a lot, turn too. I'm wondering if the river is just a check back unless you have a reason to think this villain will check call down three streets with a king, the only aces you beat are A2, A3, A4, and A7 which seems like a pretty thin range to get value from. Love the river bet size if you have AK/AQ/KK/66 and maybe even AJ though, depending on villain.
October 6, 2010
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with your stack size, if you bet 800 on the flop, you can just about shove turn (even if it is a slight overbet)
sometimes this looks bluffy and a lot of hands look you up.
November 8, 2010
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Thanks for the positive feedback. Villain actually had K5 so he sucked out on the river and won but it's good to hear that you think I got my bet sizing correct as reviewing the hand myself made me think the turn bet was wrong. Great, looks like I'm learning from TPE already.
Yeah I'd bet bigger on the flop with the intent to get it in on most turns. This is a 10 cent tourney so players will likely come along or not regardless of the bet size so if you hit a flop decently which you do I'd say you should bet bigger to thin a multi way pot field and bloat up the pot a bit for a turn shove. You should charge them even if they will come along especially because as mentioned now yo have near a pot size bet on turn for a shove and also if he's the kind of guy that calls one street then just goes away once you barrel again that extra few hundred chips you got on the first bet might be maximizing all value you will get in the hand so take that while you can.
June 22, 2010
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I would have done 2.5x the BB preflop. However, I am trying to incorporate the bet sizing agenda from the October 30th podcast into my game. You hit the flop with a weak kicker, I would have probably bet more 3/4 pot; 1/2 or less is a standard continuation and some people may not respect that you made a hand. Another thing you need to consider is at this level it becomes a shoving and suckout fest; very hard to get people to fold. Don't get discourage I started there as well and it was great for learning but frustrating as hell.
"Your either in Sheen's Korner or your with the trolls."
I like the Flop bet as well, it was a really dry board and that bet should get the job done to take down the pot, get value from a worse hand, and keep the pot smaller if you are beat, there are alot of fish at this level and they may be calling three streets with a K, but I would probably check back on the turn and call a river bet for pot control. I guess on that board I would not be looking for ways to get my money in with that hand, as you move up, people won't be playing their hand that way. I would like to hear other opinions on this.
October 6, 2010
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weizened said:
I like the Flop bet as well, it was a really dry board and that bet should get the job done to take down the pot, get value from a worse hand, and keep the pot smaller if you are beat, there are alot of fish at this level and they may be calling three streets with a K, but I would probably check back on the turn and call a river bet for pot control. I guess on that board I would not be looking for ways to get my money in with that hand, as you move up, people won't be playing their hand that way. I would like to hear other opinions on this.
if we had 40bb i completely agree with you, but i think with 20bb we cant really ever bet this flop and then fold on later streets.
TPE Management
March 17, 2010
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I think I just fold pre. We have to play oop with a weak A and have to fold to a pf raise.
If I am going to bet I like this line but check the river.
i'm torn PF. basically if the table has been tight and if you have a good image then i'd open like you did. but if people are flatting raises a lot and if we have an aggro image i'm much inclined to fold and look to preserve my stack for resteals and open-shoving.
as played, i think the sizing is great. any bet sizing that lets you bet, bet, and then naturally shove the river (that is, not overbet shove) is a fine sizing. especially here where it's small enough that it likely widens the villains calling range a bit.
may i ask why you don't think there are better Ax in his range?
couple things with this hand
think ur pf bet is too small here…in mtts of buyins of under thirty bucks, i think u get caalled usually by multiple callers as they think its only a minbet so lets see the flop…this is more of the psychological part of what alot of lower buyin beginning players think…so make it just over the minbet this even though a very small amt will get more folds from the inexperienced players….like four fifty sry but my phone not being nice with alt lock for numbers….
second with a stack at about twenty blinds, im almost always folding here. this stack size is a stack im usually ready to call a shove if need be….ace nine would be a better reshove steal hand rather than an open hand imo
ill look at this more when i get home on my desktop
aire
as posted by the pro's i must reiterate that pre this is indeed a fold. 21bb in turbo no antes just fold. we should be looking for resteal spots and holding on to our equity for the monster hands that we may get…..
But as playd, pre, u have to spike it up 3x. small blind levels/pre antes we should be 3xing here. we're looking to get max value when we have the best hand.
post flop betting is too small, it almost looks weak. maybe the reason he sticks around. 1200 in pot and we dont even bet half pot, pump it up here to about 675-750.
turn bet, i feel is wt the flop bet should have atleast been, with 2300 in pot we need to be betting about 980-1095
lets say we raise pre 3x, making it 600 instead of 400. if both blinds call us as now then there is 1800 in pot. we make post flop bet 875-950 then we're set up to make a pot size shove on turn. if he comes along and still suck out there is not much we can do. most times than not the winner is the aggressor.
u were unlucky in the hand no doubt, but i think bet sizing was to small which allowed him to come along a little more freely
bjizz
July 3, 2010
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Fold pre. You have a 8 bb stack and a 14 bb stack behind you and if they shove your hand will not play that great against them. And you can't call the 14 bb shover profitably.
Your stack size is awkward to play a marginal hand with. You need to raise more pre and c-bet bigger to try and set up a Turn shove as bjizzle said.
November 8, 2010
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Thanks for the replies, it's making for an interesting discussion although their doesn't seem to be a definitive correct play here except for the pre-flop fold. Given that I saw the flop, the discussion on bet-sizing on flop/turn is interesting reading.
Hagbard Celine likes the sizing of bets yet others think they are too small and inviting callers. This is the dilemma I am stuck with – my gut reaction is to bet bigger on flop and shove turn but I was trying a different approach based on things I picked up in the podcast. I guess if the villain hadn't spiked his two pair on flop the play would've worked perfectly and even with the bet sizing I made, he didn't have the odds to be calling with K5. The question is would he have folded with bigger flop/turn bets and is that what our intention?
you dont want him to fold K5. and thats kind of what i was getting at with your betsizing. not only does it allow you to get allin by the river, but you got dude to call two streets with 2nd pair no kicker.
July 3, 2010
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Once you actually play the hand the bet sizes are fine. There's only one gutshot draw on the flop so it's not like you need to prize anyone out of anything.
And the turn card changes nothing at all.
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