Hello all,
This is a general question but one that has tied me into frustrating knots lately.
We all know the micros tend to have very loose and passive players. Recently, I seem to be at tables full of these cute little players. I know that value towning these folks is the way to exploit them but how in the world do you do that when you are staring at T4o and the like? I understand being patient but I seem to be in a particularly long stretch of unplayable hands. To be fair, I do get tight players in the blinds from time to time and do attempt to steal with trash when able. Obviously I try and play pots in position when I have a decent hand (opening up my ranges a little). It’s one thing to wait in the early stages but what about in the mid stages?
When you find yourself at a loose, sticky table AND you are not getting the standard playable hands, is it advisable to significantly open up your ranges? In other words, do you over call with T7o or a suited Q and what have you and try and smash a cheap flop every couple of orbits? Is it ever a good idea to simply gamble it up in these situations? If so, do you set parameters (if my stack gets down to Xbb I’ll start gambling and if it gets up to Ybb I’ll go back to normal)? I know it can’t be +EV to play like a fish but at the same time I feel like I’m not going to build a stack anyway in these situations. Kind of like I’d rather die fighting than curled up in the fetal position.
Obviously, I’ve never seen any poker instruction advising the above. The only advice I’ve heard is to value town loose and passive players. I don’t think I’ve ever heard of an adjustment when facing a loose and sticky table when you don’t have value hands. I have historically simply waited it out. I feel like I’m waiting for something decent in these situations then finding myself short and having to shove. Is that really the best one can do?
I will add that I’ve cashed in a fair number of DON STTs by waiting and hoping/expecting others to make mistakes, which they do. Once in the short stack situation I’m very comfortable but it does feel like I’m relying way too much on luck (both in terms of catching something good at the right time and/or them to make horrific mistakes at the right time). This works okay for DONs but not regular STTs and not MTTs.
I do wonder if this isn’t just a form of variance that you can’t do much about. In other words, I’m in a bit of a card rut and there really isn’t anything I can do about it in the short term. My gut is telling me it won’t last forever but sheesh, I feel so handcuffed.
So, any of you micro-grinding masters have any adjustments you make when in this situation? I guess I could always move up in stakes where they will respect my raises …
Signed,
Desperately Seeking Something, Anything!
TPE Pro
December 6, 2012
I think the main problem here is that you are, at least implicitly, assuming that because you have been getting bad hands, you are likely to continue getting bad hands. As you say, you are not going to make money playing bad hands just because you are bored or frustrated. Most tournaments you enter, you just aren’t going to win, and there’s nothing you can do about that. Trying to force it can only make matters worse. Just gotta play each hand you’re dealt as well as you can, and often that means folding.
almofadinhas said
There is not much you can do I guess, if they will call you down very loose the best is to wait a real hand and get value from it, there is not much value to bluff calling stations.When I am on a limp-limp table, around 10~18 bbs, I tend to shove with a wider range, not too wide actually, something like 25% range: JJ-22, A2s+, K7s+, Q8s+, J9s+, T8s+, 97s+, 87s, 76s, 65s, 54s, A8o+, K9o+, QTo+, JTo… This is working with a high frequency, I do this when the blinds are high, and with antes in the pot, with two or more limpers, from final position. Sometimes I do get called by better, but most often is live cards.
therealrobertf said
When you find yourself at a loose, sticky table AND you are not getting the standard playable hands, is it advisable to significantly open up your ranges? In other words, do you over call with T7o or a suited Q and what have you and try and smash a cheap flop every couple of orbits? Is it ever a good idea to simply gamble it up in these situations? …I do open my ranges a bit, but when i am deep, 30bbs+, and V will be a little deep too… I will try to play HU IP tow, and I have to know V is not going to call cbets very often, when he misses the board.
You know, that actually highlights a mistake I’ve been making as I review my play. Specifically, while I do tend to widen my ranges I don’t think I’m widening them enough. I think I have been guilty of playing too tight in specific situations against specific opponents. In other words, I haven’t been really thinking about their range and how my hand fares against same. Instead, I’ve been a bit gun shy because my hand is not one I would normally play but in reality is very playable in that specific situation against that specific opponent.
Foucault said
I think the main problem here is that you are, at least implicitly, assuming that because you have been getting bad hands, you are likely to continue getting bad hands. As you say, you are not going to make money playing bad hands just because you are bored or frustrated. Most tournaments you enter, you just aren’t going to win, and there’s nothing you can do about that. Trying to force it can only make matters worse. Just gotta play each hand you’re dealt as well as you can, and often that means folding.
Thank you, Andrew. I appreciate your replies to the posts on the forum and your videos (and your podcasts). I see your point and understand. I think I was suffering from a bit of frustration since it has been a slow, painful grind as opposed to the spectacular suck-out or cooler (or getting it in bad). As I mentioned my reply above, I definitely see some missed opportunities as I review my play as well as seeing there was no good alternative to folding in many spots.
joelshitshow said
(Edited to say this is for cash games. I misread the original post.)
The reason I would widen my range is because my action is being respected too much. If you’re playing loose players, they’re not likely to pay you the proper respect for your hands, let along more than is warranted. So although a wider range is +EV because their range is even more widerer than yours, it also increases variance.
This happens in the 1-3 games at Rio during the WSOP every summer. You can generally play premiums only and do all right, because no one notices you haven’t played a hand the past 2 hours.
Those must be fun games to be around in general. Will you be there this summer? I’m going to be there for a few days the first week of June and hopefully return. I’ve never been during the WSOP.
TPE Pro
August 25, 2012
A quote from Phil Galfond that I really like: “You don’t make money in poker by making people fold”. You make money by getting value from your strong hands. There’s no need to try to mess around with weak players with weak hands – that’s not exploiting them. Exploiting them is fastplaying your strong hands and making sure you get value from them, not trying to create profitable circumstances out of thin air. There’s just not much you can ever really do to profit with bad hands, and that’s okay.
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